On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 16:54:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 7:06:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:04:45 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 5:13:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 2:37:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:

One more time S L O W L Y

I have a transformer with two 120v secondaries. Assume the taps are A
& B on each.
If they are wound around the core in the same direction from A to B,
do you agree each would be in phase if they are measured A to B.
Now if I connect them in series A to B do you agree the current is
going in the same direction in both windings so they are still in
phase? You will see 240v from the A to B on each end.
If they were connected A to A in series they would be 180 degrees out
of phase the voltage would be zero.
In fact they have to be in phase to add. Otherwise they buck.

Now look at your pole pig outside your house and tell me which one it
most closely resembles.

You are confusing the halves of one sine wave with two sine waves.
I don't know what the professor has to rationalize to teach this
simple thing to the snowflakes in his class.

Go ahead, keep disparaging the professor of electrical engineering
with 40 years of experience, who presented the paper I cited at
a power industry conference to his peers. I'm sure they are all
dumb snowflakes. Did you look at the math, where he did the analysis?
This coming from the guy who still can't give a definition of what
N phase power even means. I gave you two or three days, then I gave
you the simple definition that cover it all. One that doesn't rely
on transformers, generators, it's a complete, general definition.


I am just disparaging his rationalization of a simple thing.

If you look at his paper, he's not rationalizing anything. He's
doing a very detailed and complex analysis of how loads on the 240/120
service affect the voltage that customers receive. He starts off
by explaining that what you really have are two phases there, that's
how you have to model it and that's how it has to be analyzed.
Then he analyzes it.

It sounds like a software bug in his model that he is rationalizing.


The
transformer in front of your house is essentially 2 windings IN PHASE
that are connected together in series. The fact that they center tap
it and ground the center tap might give the impression that one
suddenly changed directions but it is simply not true.

The center tap creates two voltage sources, with potentially two
differing currents flowing in them, of opposite polarity. What is another
way of saying two voltage sources are opposite polarity when they are
related periodic waveforms of the same frequency? You say that one is
180 deg out of PHASE with respect to the other.

Horse ****, It is still just one voltage source and the current is
flowing the same way in each of them at any given instant.
You are just looking at it from the middle so you get the illusion it
is 2 sources. If the tap was 2/3ds the way along the secondary, would
you say they were now 239 degrees out of phase?


Lets even make this simpler for you.
I have the exact same transformer and I move the ground to one end,
like you see in Europe.

IDK why you keep going back to transformers, when it's IRRELEVANT how
power is actually generated. I've said a dozen times now you could
generate 240/120 going into a house from a generator with two coils,
a transformer, or by synthesizing it totally electronically, or from
an imaginary black box, It does not change what is there, how the
currents flow, how the electrons behave.

The electrons are still moving in the same direction at the same
amperage on either side of that center tap. Kirchoff says that. The
only thing that differs is how much of the unbalanced load goes down
the neutral but it still adds up to what goes in each end. That is why
the utility only needs to measure the ungrounded leads.


It is a single winding with one end 2xx volts
above ground. You will agree this is clearly single phase?
Now how does moving the grounds back to the center change the number
of phases present or change the current flow in the second half of the
transformer at all?

Because now the two ends of the transformer are 180 deg out of phase
with respect to your new center tap, that's how. Call it opposite
polarity if you like. In electrical engineering, if you have two
periodic voltage sources, one is the opposite polarity of the other,
what do you call it? You say that one source is 180 deg out of
phase from the other.

If you divide a sine wave in half, it is always going to be opposite
polarity on each side of the divide but it is still just one sine
wave.

Making this 2 generators does not change a thing. If the 2 generators
are in phase, hooking them in series doubles the voltage end to end
but each one is still working exactly the same way. Grounding the
junctions between them may look like something changed measured from
the middle but nothing changed.
It is my ramp again. If you are at the top, it is a ramp down. If you
are at the bottom it is a ramp up but if you are in the middle it
looks like 2 ramps, one up and one down. It is still just one ramp.


Why won't you just go through the simple questions, one at a time for
the two problems I presented:


Problem #1:

You say the old 90 deg two phase was over 4 wires. If I instead put
it over three wires, with a shared neutral, would there still be two phases?
(my answer YES)


In fact they do and it comes over 5 wires. The windings look like
this + with ground at the center.
Why aren't you calling THAT 4 phase? The windings on both sides of the
center tap will act just like what we are talking about.



Put two 120V windings on the same shaft at the generator and feed it to the
house over three wires, shared neutral, with a 90 deg phase
difference between the two coils. Would there then be two phases entering
the homeowner;s house?

Yes or no?
(my answer YES)

Yes that would be 2 phase because of the phase difference between the
coils but to duplicate a house service, they would need to be IN phase
with each other so you would get 240v when you summed them together.

Go back to your batteries. When you connect them + to - in series, you
are attaching them IN phase. The current is always flowing in the same
direction and the voltage adds.
If you measured them from the center it might appear they are hooked
up opposite but you have to look at the system as a whole, not just
one segment.

If it's 180 phase difference, then what? Isn't that still two phases?
(YES)

If there is truly 180 difference in current flow, the output by
connecting them in series is zero.
You have to look at things as a system when you connect them together,
not just one small part.