On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 7:06:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:04:45 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 5:13:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 2:37:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:

One more time S L O W L Y

I have a transformer with two 120v secondaries. Assume the taps are A
& B on each.
If they are wound around the core in the same direction from A to B,
do you agree each would be in phase if they are measured A to B.
Now if I connect them in series A to B do you agree the current is
going in the same direction in both windings so they are still in
phase? You will see 240v from the A to B on each end.
If they were connected A to A in series they would be 180 degrees out
of phase the voltage would be zero.
In fact they have to be in phase to add. Otherwise they buck.

Now look at your pole pig outside your house and tell me which one it
most closely resembles.

You are confusing the halves of one sine wave with two sine waves.
I don't know what the professor has to rationalize to teach this
simple thing to the snowflakes in his class.

Go ahead, keep disparaging the professor of electrical engineering
with 40 years of experience, who presented the paper I cited at
a power industry conference to his peers. I'm sure they are all
dumb snowflakes. Did you look at the math, where he did the analysis?
This coming from the guy who still can't give a definition of what
N phase power even means. I gave you two or three days, then I gave
you the simple definition that cover it all. One that doesn't rely
on transformers, generators, it's a complete, general definition.


I am just disparaging his rationalization of a simple thing.

If you look at his paper, he's not rationalizing anything. He's
doing a very detailed and complex analysis of how loads on the 240/120
service affect the voltage that customers receive. He starts off
by explaining that what you really have are two phases there, that's
how you have to model it and that's how it has to be analyzed.
Then he analyzes it.



The
transformer in front of your house is essentially 2 windings IN PHASE
that are connected together in series. The fact that they center tap
it and ground the center tap might give the impression that one
suddenly changed directions but it is simply not true.

The center tap creates two voltage sources, with potentially two
differing currents flowing in them, of opposite polarity. What is another
way of saying two voltage sources are opposite polarity when they are
related periodic waveforms of the same frequency? You say that one is
180 deg out of PHASE with respect to the other.



Lets even make this simpler for you.
I have the exact same transformer and I move the ground to one end,
like you see in Europe.

IDK why you keep going back to transformers, when it's IRRELEVANT how
power is actually generated. I've said a dozen times now you could
generate 240/120 going into a house from a generator with two coils,
a transformer, or by synthesizing it totally electronically, or from
an imaginary black box, It does not change what is there, how the
currents flow, how the electrons behave.




It is a single winding with one end 2xx volts
above ground. You will agree this is clearly single phase?
Now how does moving the grounds back to the center change the number
of phases present or change the current flow in the second half of the
transformer at all?

Because now the two ends of the transformer are 180 deg out of phase
with respect to your new center tap, that's how. Call it opposite
polarity if you like. In electrical engineering, if you have two
periodic voltage sources, one is the opposite polarity of the other,
what do you call it? You say that one source is 180 deg out of
phase from the other.


Making this 2 generators does not change a thing. If the 2 generators
are in phase, hooking them in series doubles the voltage end to end
but each one is still working exactly the same way. Grounding the
junctions between them may look like something changed measured from
the middle but nothing changed.
It is my ramp again. If you are at the top, it is a ramp down. If you
are at the bottom it is a ramp up but if you are in the middle it
looks like 2 ramps, one up and one down. It is still just one ramp.


Why won't you just go through the simple questions, one at a time for
the two problems I presented:


Problem #1:

You say the old 90 deg two phase was over 4 wires. If I instead put
it over three wires, with a shared neutral, would there still be two phases?
(my answer YES)

Put two 120V windings on the same shaft at the generator and feed it to the
house over three wires, shared neutral, with a 90 deg phase
difference between the two coils. Would there then be two phases entering
the homeowner;s house?

Yes or no?
(my answer YES)

Would there still be two phases there if I rotate one generator coil
so that it's 179 deg phase difference instead of 90?

Yes or no?
(my answer YES)

If it's 180 phase difference, then what? Isn't that still two phases?
(YES)

And if that is still two phases, then it's electrically identical to
what's coming into the house from the center tapped transformer.
Electrons and engineering don't care how it was created, only what is
actually there.


Problem #2

I have a black box that has five phases coming out of it, at 120,
150, 180, 210, 240. They are electronically synthesized as you would in
a uninterruptable power supply. Do you need to know what drives it
for there to be 6 phases there?
(NO)

Does it matter if it came from a
transformer, a generator or was synthesized using a battery?
(NO)

If the 180 phase doesn't count as
a phase, then why not? I can see all five on a scope.
(NO)

All that is very basic stuff.