On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 12:00:56 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 06:19:13 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 4:44:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:59:38 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 11:34:32 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 07/27/2018 04:40 PM, wrote:

[snip]

"Split Phase" is a type of motor, not an electrical distribution
method.

Can't accept a phrase applying to more than one thing? "Split phase" is
where two phases are made from one (in other words, one is split into
two). Whether it happens in a motor or in a transformer doesn't change
the appropriateness of the phrase.

[snip]
The problem with that is you did not create another phase.


Yes you did, by using a center tap you now have two voltage sources
that are 180 deg out of phase. You're getting hung up on how something
is created. Electrons in three wires don't care how they were created,
what the source was. AGain, if you took the old 90 deg two phase,
that had two phases you say. If I made it 179 would that be two
phases? 181? Then why not 180?


There is only one secondary winding and only one source.

You sure can't model what's going on over that service with only
one voltage source. Describe the simple circuit schematic, using
ideal voltage sources, that you'd use to model it. I can give you
mine, it's exactly the circuit diagram shown in the IEEE paper
describing the analysis of what we're talking about, which is two
ideal voltage sources. You
take one 120V ideal voltage source and connect it's negative side to
the positive side of another 120V ideal voltage source. Explain how
to model it with a just a single ideal voltage source.




It is only confused homeowners who have trouble understanding that.

The rest is gibberish

A center tapped transformer essentially creates two coils with one
end connected together.
Put two windings on the same shaft at the generator and feed it to the
house over three wires, shared neutral, with a 90 deg phase
difference between the two coils. Would there then be two phases entering
the homeowner;s house?

Yes or no?

Would there still be two phases there if I rotate one generator coil
so that it's 179 deg phase difference instead of 90?

Yes or no?

No

The windings are still in phase. If they were out of phase, like the
windings in a GFCI transformer the resulting line to line voltage
would be zero because they would buck each other.

As I am going to say for the last time, you look at a system from end
to end, not from halfway in between the ends.


As the Dos Equis guy says, "Stay dumb my friend".


If I'm the one who's dumb, why is it that I'm the only one here who
can give you a simple, logical, straightforward definition of N phase
power? I asked, no one could even define it. I gave it to you:


N Phase Power - A power delivery system that uses N related voltage sources,
that are periodic waveforms of the same frequency, differing only in
phase.

Following your logic that you have to analyze a whole system, then we can't
use electrical engineering tools to
analyze the output stage in an audio amplifier unless we know the whole
"system" from end to end. We can't identify phase relationships in a
part of a circuit, without going all the way back to the generator???

And I keep giving you the opportunity to go all the way back to the generator,
asking the simple questions a beginning elec engineering student or
even a high school student might ask a teacher. Questions you won't
answer, step by step, because you get cornered by the truth. I answer
all your questions.


Put two windings on the same shaft at the generator and feed it to the
house over three wires, shared neutral, with a 90 deg phase
difference between the two coils. Would there then be two phases entering
the homeowner;s house?

Yes or no?

Would there still be two phases there if I rotate one generator coil
so that it's 179 deg phase difference instead of 90?

Yes or no?


If it's 180 phase difference, then what? Is that still two phases?


And if that is still two phases, then it's electrically identical to
what's coming into the house from the center tapped transformer.
Electrons and engineering don't care how it was created, only what is
actually there. As I said before, from an engineering perspective,
let's say I have a black box that has five phases coming out of it, at 120,
150, 180, 210, 240. They are electronically synthesized as you would in
a uninterruptable power supply. Do you need to know what drives it
for there to be 6 phases there? Why does it matter if it's powered
by a DC battery, single phase or 3 phase? Is the 180 one not a legitimate
phase, just because it's at 180?

The other poster raised another good point. If there are not two phases
present, then I should be able to take any two receptacles in a house
and parallel them. Fact is you can't, because they are 180 deg out
of PHASE with each other.

They are NOT 180 degrees out of phase, If they were, the line to line
voltage would be zero. You are just looking at the 2 halves of a 240v
sine wave.
Draw a sine wave. look at the center point and you see what I mean.
It is one sine wave, about 168 P/P (120 RMS) and from the center point
each side is the compliment of the other but it is still one sine
wave.
Until you understand that you will remain confused.

To make the 2 sides of that transformer 180 degrees out of phase you
would need to wind it in the opposite direction and we know it is just
one winding.
Your generator scenario also would require that they both be in phase
so the voltage would add or the resulting end to end voltage would be
zero, even though both were putting out 120.

In fact the farther you take 2 windings out of phase, the lower the
line to line voltage will be, hence 208 on regular 120 degree put of
phase 3P wye. (Sq/Rt of 3).

The line to line of a 2 phase from the two 90 degrees out would be
around 168 (120* sq/rt 2)