On 02/07/2018 21:44, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 01/07/2018 11:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
....
In te end its not about what you or Tim think, its about what 17m
people were strongly motivated enough to vote for.

It is what they voted for two years ago, when they thought the Leave
campaigners must have a coherent idea of how to achieve Brexit in the
simple and easy way they predicted it would happen ...

How do you know they thought that?

Balance of probabilities, unless you think that the vast majority of
people would knowingly vote for the sort of chaos that Brexit has turned
out to be.

In any case (1), the simple and easy
way is WTO rules. And in any case (2) I for one voted to have it happen
*somehow*, given the trouble we had getting *any* sort of referendum.
For my money, getting a Leave decision at all was the *most* important
aspect. The rest is detail.

Yes, but that is you. All political groups have their core of hard liners.

... when the refugee crisis was at its height and most people didn't
realise that the EU couldn't force the UK to take any of them ...

How d'ye know this?

It is what came over in interviews at the time. Some even appeared to
believe that taking back control of our borders would mean sending all
immigrants back to the lands of their fathers (or grandfathers).

and when, according to a later survey 35% of leave voters believed that
Brexit would give the NHS £350 million a week.

Ah, a survey. Whose survey? And I don't know how anyone could think the
£350 million was done and dusted, since it wasn't a promise (which the
promisers were in no position to promise anyway, not being government
policymakers), it was a suggestion.

It doesn't really matter what it was or was not. What matters is that
lots of people believed it was a promise. The Vote Leave director,
Dominic Cummings even admitted that they would not have won without it:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-public/08/02/

It is unlikely they would make the same choice today, having seen some
of the realities of the Brexit process.

WTF has the *process* got to do with it? The *process* has been
difficult because of the ****ty behaviour of the EU, and the lying
behaviour of some Remainers, who in their hypocritical way say they
respect the result, but then do all in their power to undermine it.

The process has been difficult because of political infighting inside
the Conservative party. The responses of the EU were both reasonable and
predictable. It was only in the Brexiteer dream world that they would
have done anything different. The government should have ironed out all
its differences and come up with a firm set of proposals, with fall-back
positions in place, before issuing the Article 50 notification.

What counts is actually *leaving*.

Only to the hard liners and, of course, the very rich who would
otherwise have to comply with the EU rules on tax avoidance and tax
evasion that are due to come into effect next year.


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Colin Bignell