"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 28/06/18 11:44, Jeff wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 28/06/18 10:24, Jeff wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news On 27/06/18 19:36, Tim Streater wrote:
You can also imagine that if you could get hold of a tire of the same
overall diameter but to go on a much smaller wheel, that the
spiralling
effect when flat would be much more pronounced as the tire wall would
be bigger. But, once spiralled up, one turn

I've been thinking about this a lot trying to make it simple enough
for even a remoaner to understand.

The fallacy is in Huge's basic premise that because the axle is a
given height above te ground, that represents the 'effective/rolling
radius*' of the tyre.

It does not.

It does when considering the distance that determines the rotation rate
of the wheel.

The 'effective/rolling radius' is /always/ the circumference divided
by 2 PI.

Not when it is the distance between the axle and the road that
determines the rotation rate of the wheel.

How can this be? Quite simply because the tyre is attached to the
wheel all round, and the tyre is dragged along by the sidewall such
that the tread is moving faster (angular velocity) than the rim at the
point of 'flatness'.

So Huge's assumption that the tyre tread speed is actually it's
distance from the axis of rotation, times the speed of rotation of the
wheel, is simply a mistake. It is in fact *greater*, at that point,
and its the sidewall flexure that takes up the strain, and the
attachment of the tyre at other points of the rim that creates that
strain.

Should the wheel deflate completely, then the strain in the sidewall
and the friction between the tread and the rim as the two models
compete...leads to rapid separation of tread and wheel.

You then end up then with a wheel rim and tyre tread rotating at
completely different angular velocity. The triumph of 'Huge's model'
is to rip the tyre sidewall apart to allow that to happen.


If you follow F1 you can see this regularly - you end up with the
sidewall disintegrating and a more or less intact tread separating
from the car wheel entirely.


This leads to the conclusions that what affects wheel RPM - in a non
slip case - apart from car speed, is change in *circumference* alone,
and that will be a function of tyre tread elasticity, tyre pressure
and tyre RPM only, due to 'centrifugal force'.

Loading won't affect it at all.

And whoever dreamt up 'effective' or 'rolling' radius deserves to be
strapped to a centrifuge.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

So is relying on 'experts' who are equally ignorant.

But it is very easy to measure both a fully inflated tyre
and one that is say 20% under inflated and see if the
rotation rate of the wheel is in fact determined by the
distance between the axle and the road or the very
minimal change in the circumference of the tyre and
that must have been done when designing the ABS
system for detecting under inflated tyres.

Indeed. I see that my efforts are watsed and you havent understood a
word I said, nor even looked at the video I posted way back where
someone did precusely this and showed that within the limits of te
technique, flattening te tyre made no measureable difference

And yet we know that the TMPS system that uses the ABS sensors does
work to detect under inflated tyres very reliably.

IF youy watch te video ytou will see that 'no measurable difference in
that video is less than 5% or so.

If you read the article I linked to it showed that 30% defltion was less
than 1% difference. This is detecatable by good software.

- ceraiunly
not as much as the 'loss of radius' would account for. Nor yet te p[aper
I likned to that showed taht te differemnce with 30% deflation was of
the order of a percent or so. WAY less than would be accounted for by
the 'loss of radius'



A lot of engineering is highly counter intuitive.

Doesnt matter when it is so easy measure.

Why don't you measure it then?

My car does have ABS, but doesnt show the instantaneous
rotation rate of each wheel on the OBD2 data.

You just have to put a chalk mark on the tyre and put another chaklkmark
on te ground, roll it forward a few revolutions, then flatten it by 30%
and roll it back to where it started. If you are correct the chalk marks
will be out by 10% or more. If I am right they will be damned near lined
up perfectly.

What matters is the rotation rate of the wheel, because that
is what the ABS sensors are measuring.

This threaad is not about the abilituy of software to detect a 1% change,
its about the claim by Huge and others that the tyre rotation rate will
cahnge by 10% or more depending in pressuer AND LOADING



I see that other people have, and that confirms my thesis.

What I wouuld ask you is how a tyre, rotating at a differentent rate
from a wheel, so that its circumference does in fact get covered on the
ground by that rotaion, stays on the wheel without ripping the tread
off?