On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 07:51:17 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:
snip
if I believe something is dangerous I need to take it out of action so thinking is important.
Yes, you do ... and it's not the taking it out of action that should
be the big decision but any delays in *not* taking it out of action.
snip
I didn't see any delays in NOT taking it out of action only delays in taking it out of action.
Quite.
and then we'd have to close the lab resulting in delayed corses and a back log.
Irrelevant. That's possibly like leaving the same insulation tiles on
other buildings like Grenfell because it will make them colder.
Nothing like that at all.
Everything like that mate. *If* something went wrong and you knew
about a potential issue but failed to do anything about it ...
But there was NO issue, an imaginged issue perhaps.
That's why I said 'potential' there. Only *today* have you found out
that there is no issue afa the supplier is concerned.
shrug See how much help they 'don't give' if you suggest there could
be a safety issue and therefore a potential threat to life.
which I can only do after I have checked them all.
Even one faulty one could be an issue ...
If it were faulty it might be, depending on the fault.
Quite.
but 'of course' you could
also rest more and I thought you said you already had (because you
kept denying it was likely to be a batch fault as they all acted the
same)?
I did a quick check on 3 of them when I found ONE to be giving 700W when I thought it should be around 1.7KW consumption.
No, you repeatedly asked why it wasn't actually 2000W. Then you added
that it dropped down to 700W and not zero.
That's why I asked
"So how much power does an oil filled radiator actually use"
What, you previously said they were all acting identically?
snip
It's not denial
Of course it is as you would have done something sooner rather than
arguing with me why there was no need and why you shouldn't?
I did the right thing it seems.
Really? How did you come to that conclusion (other than with
hindsight)?
I'm the one testing these things out, who else has done this.
You said you had a testing guy come in and do it any you were happy he
found them safe?
I was happy with the PAT tester who tests the equipment for electric safety.
And I never had any thoughts regarding their electrical safety.
Unless equipment has been checked I'm not allowed to use it unless it's new of course.
And you told us these were new and had just had 5 delivered. Then it
turns out the one you tested was a 2016 model?
snip
atually I first heard this from Data on star trek on the holodeck when he was playing sherlock.
I remember the episode.
But I hadn't eliminated the impossible.
So, what do you know today that you didn't know last week?
That's there's nothing wrong with the heaters
Supposedly, other than they aren't actually 2kW heaters etc.
and that if the 2KW was used as an indication of teh amount of heat they give off anyone using that in a calculation would get the wrong result if they were trying to calculate how many of these heaters would be required to perform the task of heating.
Quite.
Ere, a test I suggested and I don't think you have conducted yet is to
see how it performs (or works at all) just the high power element (No2
/ II) enabled? My thinking is that it might not overtemp cycle (or do
so as quickly) and so you would get more heat for a longer period,
maybe even continuously until the main thermostat cuts it out.
snip
for some strange reason yuo say yuo used the email address for sales where as I clicked on the link Log a Technical Query, which is what I have.
You accused me of contacting sales rather than TS. I contacted TS via
the email they offer for TS shrug.
yuo must have as you will NOT get technical support unless you enter your account code it's one of the red stared boxes that is compulsury,
* Required, account number and phone number.
*Unless* you email the address given it seems ...
I also DID NOT have a working phone both the office phone wa sout of action and so was teh so called emrgency phone.
So? I emailed Tech Support without requiring any account information
and without needing to use a phone.
Hey, some info for you .... if you phone many companies with the
intention of talking to TS, guess what, you often have to speak to
admin first. Then they put you though to TS.
Unless all those boxes are filled they won't or can't support you.
Quite (mug).
That is why I couldn't use tech support because I don't have the account code.
And that's why I could access TS because I used a method that didn't
require steps I couldn't answer. Simples Eh (even for you hopefully).
http://cpc.farnell.com/technical-support
I had to scroll down and use the Email technical support:
which is the product info email.
And I used the email given in the Technical Support field, so what?
Online Query Form: Log a Technical Query
Email:
two seperate email adresses and you told me sales had contected you .
No, I contacted sales, they spoke to TS and sales replied to me,
quoting the TS team.
snip
They seem to be safe to use in the teaching lab as they are, so I'm not worried from a H&S POV.
But maybe you should be, until they give you a formal 'all clear' in
any case?
which they have done proving I was right.
Do you also have issues dealing with timelines? At this point in the
conversation you hadn't said you had a reply.
snip
Quite possibly. How many people would plug one into a power meter?
same number of people that'd try to set fire to clading to see if it's safe as a building material I suspect.
You may well be right. ;-(
snip
Quite and it may have been and then a wiring error crept in ...
snip
If no one noticed then perhaps it's not an error at all, but a feature.
Why would it need such a feature if it worked as it should? You have
already stated the 'better quality' heater you have measured works
exactly as expected.
At best cycling the rad on an overtemp stat instead of the main stat
is a bodge.
snip
(Oh, what, with an 'overtemp stat', who would have thought! Lets hope
it still can't overheat when a student forgets they have left their
coat draped over it ...).
Well in that case I'd most likely notice
Let's hope then.
as I throw them at at 5pm, this is one reason we've always liked clearing the lab and before the £30k electrical upgrade at 4:45pm every 'night' I used to hit the main power emergency mushroom button switch ALL the electric OFF in the teaching labs in 251 & 253.
Ok.
Once the students knew there wasn't any power and couldn't find the trace on teh scope and the neons on the PSU had all gone out and when I started switching off the lights the studetns used to leave and there was NO power to the labs.
Ok.
snip
So for me this is now closed and I can re-install the heaters.
Even if that isn't actually the whole story at least you now have
something to cover your back etc.
That is my main aim yes, and teh reason I question managment when they told me to leave the heaters on over night when the datasheet/manual says do not leave them unattended.
Quite (however unrealistic for that sort of appliance).
Now you just need to get them to answer your first question re why
they aren't actually a 2kW heater. ;-)
I know why, 2KW is the maximum at 240V it indicates that on the label.
Good boy!
which is hy I expected less KW with the 23V max we get in the lab and why I wasn;lt too concerned in getting only 1.6KW at 202V
You only seemed 'less concerned when it was explained to you 20 times.
snip
As I suggested from the evidence of haing a heater that exibited this fault for 2 years so this 'fault'; had been in all these heaters sold over the last 2 years unlikely.
But not impossible (and this is new information to us remember).
Is anything impossible watson ;-)
Quite.
The information was new to me too I'd never run my office heater for long enough to question it's consumption or behavaour.
Ok.
It was only when I tried to work out why after about an hour why 5x2KW so about 40 amps didn't trip the 32 amp MCB (as I was told to leave them on over night, I wanted to see what would happen during the day)
Ok.
So I thought to myself maybe the voltage has dropped due to ohms law etc..
So I went to find our power meter which while it worked the batteries were flat, but the reading was 202V, I thought just maybe like some of our meters the battery being flat might have some effect on the reading.
Ok.
After putting the first heater on teh power meter I got a reading of about 1.6KW, after a few mins it went down to 680W.
Ok.
So like you I thought 'faulty heater',
No, I never actually considered them 'faulty' in a basic functionality
sense (as I explained why they were likely to be doing what you
observed), just that it was a questionable way to manage an overtemp
situation and therefore they *could* be faulty in how they had been
wired.
so I tried the next one and that was almost 700W and so was the 3rd.
Ok. So you tested 3 and now have tested 5 and only when you tested 5
did you not consider it a batch problem?
I don't think there is.
But we have already seen just how little you actually understand about
any of this by the amount of time people who do know have spent
correcting and re-explaining it all to you.
But they've all been wrong.
Oh really! I'm sure they will love to hear you think that.
The heaters are NOT faulty they are design to do that accring to those working for productinfo@CPC.
Yes, I know, but do they *actually* know that's how they were
originally designed to work or that's how they happen to work?
Which is why I tested them and from the results I got I concluded that rathter than there being a fault they were just cheap heaters, perhaps not up to the spec the datasheet might suggest.
So it seems.
But in doing said tests you revealed an anomaly that I don't believe
has yet been resolved.
For me it has.
I know ... especially as you didn't seem interested in even looking
into it in the fist place.
"the drop in power drain is due to an internal thermostat designed to lower the temperature to ensure the radiator does not overheat."
Yup, that's the overtemp stat I told you about at the beginning.
what's so hard to understand
To whom, you or me (given I was one of those explaining all of this to
you from the beginning)?
"an internal thermostat designed to lower the temperature",
Yup ... spot the clue there, *internal*. (No, I don't suppose you
would spot the clue or admit you are just digging more holes for
yourself).
no mention of any cut-out
Yup, but you missed it eh. ;-(
or thermal fuse
Nope, but I'll wager you £10 personally that there is one.
or circuit breaker
I never mentioned a circuit breaker.
the word trip only appears when talking about tipping the unit over.
So, you still don't understand how 'trip' can equal 'stat'? And your
'trip' there, I'd call a safety cutout.
Sounds like a stupid / trolling question then, especially if you
already knew all the answers?
I only klnew because I tested them whereas you just read the lable on the site.
Other than I have tested this exact same thing personally myself?
So what were your results ?
I've already explained it in detail.
Did you send yuor heater back ?
I didn't need to as I fully understood how they worked (in fact I
bought two more).
Did you log a technical query', you said sales contacted you.
rememeber.
No, I emailed them a technical question.
emailed who ?
The people they offer for 'Technical questions'?
that's sales then.
Nope, no more than you would often speak to reception before speaking
to anyone. I don't suppose you have ever heard of 'Technical Sales'
either have you?
Them was a about ants, pretyy good IIRC well at the time.
Eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Them!
Ah.
One of my favourtie films when I was a kid when it came on TV , I did hide behind the chair, was about the same time doctor who had those leatherback beetles filmed with a macro camera lens to make them look really big, but I didn't understand such things at the time.
And still don't seem to understand lots of things now eh. ;-)
Cheers, T i m