On Thursday, 23 November 2017 13:42:32 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2017 04:19:37 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:
snip
Telling me to send the items back
I told you to do no such thing. I suggested they may be faulty and you
might raise the issue with the supplier and / or the manufacturer.
Which is what I have done after being able to check all 5 of teh 5 we were given.
Ok, that's a step in the right direction then.
when I don't believe anything is worng
What you *believe* is irrelevant
No it isn't,
Good.
if I believe something is dangerous I need to take it out of action so thinking is important.
Yes, you do ... and it's not the taking it out of action that should
be the big decision but any delays in *not* taking it out of action.
snip
I didn't see any delays in NOT taking it out of action only delays in taking it out of action.
and then we'd have to close the lab resulting in delayed corses and a back log.
Irrelevant. That's possibly like leaving the same insulation tiles on
other buildings like Grenfell because it will make them colder.
Nothing like that at all.
Everything like that mate. *If* something went wrong and you knew
about a potential issue but failed to do anything about it ...
But there was NO issue, an imaginged issue perhaps.
shrug See how much help they 'don't give' if you suggest there could
be a safety issue and therefore a potential threat to life.
which I can only do after I have checked them all.
Even one faulty one could be an issue ...
If it were faulty it might be, depending on the fault.
but 'of course' you could
also rest more and I thought you said you already had (because you
kept denying it was likely to be a batch fault as they all acted the
same)?
I did a quick check on 3 of them when I found ONE to be giving 700W when I thought it should be around 1.7KW consumption.
That's why I asked
"So how much power does an oil filled radiator actually use"
I asked them a question without buying the product in question myself
and they replied pretty quickly and willing to take it further?
I sent my email this morning as I have now checked them.
Good.
Tested all 5 heaters and they apparently all have exactly the same 'problem' or 'fault' which to me seems unlikely.
There you go again with you blinkers and denial.
It's not denial
Of course it is as you would have done something sooner rather than
arguing with me why there was no need and why you shouldn't?
I did the right thing it seems.
I'm the one testing these things out, who else has done this.
You said you had a testing guy come in and do it any you were happy he
found them safe?
I was happy with the PAT tester who tests the equipment for electric safety..
Unless equipment has been checked I'm not allowed to use it unless it's new of course.
i.e no sticker do not use.
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however
improbable, must be the truth".
Yes sherlock.
;-)
atually I first heard this from Data on star trek on the holodeck when he was playing sherlock.
But I hadn't eliminated the impossible.
So, what do you know today that you didn't know last week?
That's there's nothing wrong with the heaters and that if the 2KW was used as an indication of teh amount of heat they give off anyone using that in a calculation would get the wrong result if they were trying to calculate how many of these heaters would be required to perform the task of heating.
snip
for some strange reason yuo say yuo used the email address for sales where as I clicked on the link Log a Technical Query, which is what I have.
You accused me of contacting sales rather than TS. I contacted TS via
the email they offer for TS shrug.
yuo must have as you will NOT get technical support unless you enter your account code it's one of the red stared boxes that is compulsury,
* Required, account number and phone number.
I also DID NOT have a working phone both the office phone wa sout of action and so was teh so called emrgency phone.
Unless all those boxes are filled they won't or can't support you.
That is why I couldn't use tech support because I don't have the account code.
http://cpc.farnell.com/technical-support
I had to scroll down and use the Email technical support:
which is the product info email.
Online Query Form: Log a Technical Query
Email:
two seperate email adresses and you told me sales had contected you .
I want to know what consumption a 2KW heater should consume, as indicated by the subject line from teh very first post.
And you didn't know that after measuring it, posting and the fist few
replies?
snip
I'm guessing they haven't had your order number to check that the
person asking for the technical advice has actually bought such from
them etc yet?
quite likely as another form you have to type in yuor account number which I dontl have or rathe rthey weren;t ordered via 'my' account, which is why I was looking for an alternative option other than sales who rarely now technical details but are good at stock levels and pricing and teh like, perhaps this is why they have differnt email addresses
sigh The sales email *is* the contact for TS.
snip
They seem to be safe to use in the teaching lab as they are, so I'm not worried from a H&S POV.
But maybe you should be, until they give you a formal 'all clear' in
any case?
which they have done proving I was right.
A std
PAT wouldn't test for a (potential) design fault. (I nearly added
'would it' to the end of that but how would you know)?
If the desgn fault that was a saftly issue the PAT test would show it up.
And another thing the PAT test shows is that this heater was tested in fed 2017 this lable is stuck over the previous label so we've had this since at least feb 2016 and as that one is faulty and teh new ones are faulty this indicates that every heater sold since feb 2016 is faulty and no one else has noticed or reported it.
Quite possibly. How many people would plug one into a power meter?
same number of people that'd try to set fire to clading to see if it's safe as a building material I suspect.
What sort of 'tests' do you think they
would do that could go any way to justifying your poor understanding
of the entire situation?
The test they legally have to do in order for a product to be considered safe.
Quite. And that test took ~2 hours did it (the time it takes for the
rad to overheat)? They monitored the current for over two hours?
Not sure who they are
The guy you think 'tested them'?
The guy I know tested ONE as that's all I had in feb 2017.
The rest didn't arrive until this month, and as he doesnlt have to test anything that has just been brought he'd most likely check them in feb 2018.
I would expect this to be done with the prototype.
Quite and it may have been and then a wiring error crept in ...
snip
If no one noticed then perhaps it's not an error at all, but a feature.
Yes, it *might* not be but we don't know yet do we (other than my
opinion and Tech support at CPC etc)?
And NOW I do have just recieved two emails.
I sent mine at 10:07 this morning.
At 11:14 this morning :-
------------------------------------------
David
This is not how the radiator should work, please contact sales to arrange there return.
Regards
CPC Technical
------------------------------------------
As I was busy switching them off and finding their packaging....
at 11:29 this morning :-
------------------------
David
Unfortunately there was confusion over our initial response, the drop in power drain is due to an internal thermostat designed to lower the temperature to ensure the radiator does not overheat.
(Oh, what, with an 'overtemp stat', who would have thought! Lets hope
it still can't overheat when a student forgets they have left their
coat draped over it ...).
Well in that case I'd most likely notice as I throw them at at 5pm, this is one reason we've always liked clearing the lab and before the £30k electrical upgrade at 4:45pm every 'night' I used to hit the main power emergency mushroom button switch ALL the electric OFF in the teaching labs in 251 & 253.
Once the students knew there wasn't any power and couldn't find the trace on teh scope and the neons on the PSU had all gone out and when I started switching off the lights the studetns used to leave and there was NO power to the labs.
We are sorry for any inconvenience caused.
Regards
CPC Technical
-------------------------
_______________________________________________ _
So for me this is now closed and I can re-install the heaters.
Even if that isn't actually the whole story at least you now have
something to cover your back etc.
That is my main aim yes, and teh reason I question managment when they told me to leave the heaters on over night when the datasheet/manual says do not leave them unattended.
Now you just need to get them to answer your first question re why
they aren't actually a 2kW heater. ;-)
I know why, 2KW is the maximum at 240V it indicates that on the label.
which is hy I expected less KW with the 23V max we get in the lab and why I wasn;lt too concerned in getting only 1.6KW at 202V
I did know why they are only 1.6KW.
Not at the beginning you didn't or presumably you wouldn't have asked
here?
Well I wasn't asking why they were 1.6KW but why they were 700W.
Ok.
You don't think there is a problem so why are you reporting one?
you're the one that there's a problem.
Eh?
As I suggested from the evidence of haing a heater that exibited this fault for 2 years so this 'fault'; had been in all these heaters sold over the last 2 years unlikely.
But not impossible (and this is new information to us remember).
Is anything impossible watson ;-)
The information was new to me too I'd never run my office heater for long enough to question it's consumption or behavaour.
It was only when I tried to work out why after about an hour why 5x2KW so about 40 amps didn't trip the 32 amp MCB (as I was told to leave them on over night, I wanted to see what would happen during the day)
So I thought to myself maybe the voltage has dropped due to ohms law etc..
So I went to find our power meter which while it worked the batteries were flat, but the reading was 202V, I thought just maybe like some of our meters the battery being flat might have some effect on the reading.
After putting the first heater on teh power meter I got a reading of about 1.6KW, after a few mins it went down to 680W. So like you I thought 'faulty heater', so I tried the next one and that was almost 700W and so was the 3rd.
I don't think there is.
But we have already seen just how little you actually understand about
any of this by the amount of time people who do know have spent
correcting and re-explaining it all to you.
But they've all been wrong.
Oh really! I'm sure they will love to hear you think that.
The heaters are NOT faulty they are design to do that accring to those working for productinfo@CPC.
Which is why I tested them and from the results I got I concluded that rathter than there being a fault they were just cheap heaters, perhaps not up to the spec the datasheet might suggest.
But in doing said tests you revealed an anomaly that I don't believe
has yet been resolved.
For me it has.
"the drop in power drain is due to an internal thermostat designed to lower the temperature to ensure the radiator does not overheat."
what's so hard to understand "an internal thermostat designed to lower the temperature", no mention of any cut-out or thermal fuse or circuit breaker the word trip only appears when talking about tipping the unit over.
snip
Sounds like a stupid / trolling question then, especially if you
already knew all the answers?
I only klnew because I tested them whereas you just read the lable on the site.
Other than I have tested this exact same thing personally myself?
So what were your results ?
Did you send yuor heater back ?
Did you log a technical query', you said sales contacted you.
rememeber.
No, I emailed them a technical question.
emailed who ?
The people they offer for 'Technical questions'?
that's sales then.
Them was a about ants, pretyy good IIRC well at the time.
Eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Them!
One of my favourtie films when I was a kid when it came on TV , I did hide behind the chair, was about the same time doctor who had those leatherback beetles filmed with a macro camera lens to make them look really big, but I didn't understand such things at the time.