"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 22/11/2017 21:34, Fredxxx wrote:

On 22/11/2017 01:28, JNugent wrote:
On 22/11/2017 00:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
JNugent wrote:

[ ... ]

UB is a stop-gap until things get better by other means (a job).

Bit like saying when your insurance company pays for a repair to your
car it is only a stop gap until you get a new one.

Not even a little bit like it. No-one wants ever to have to make a car
insurance claim. Everyone hopes
and expects to claim and receive Retirement Pension, preferable for a
very long time.
But car insurance claims may, I suppose, be slightly likened to
unemployment benefit. One hopes never to have to claim and with good
luck, never will.

The idea of national insurance is to provide for times when you are
unemployed or unable to work for other reasons. And to provide for old
age.

That certainly is often erroneously supposed to be the case. National
"Insurance" is not an insurance scheme - and you know it isn't. If it
were, it would cost more the greater the risk of unemployment or
sickness because that's the way that insurance works. But in the UK,
national insurance contributions are lowest (and can be zero) for those
who spend the longest periods on benefits and those who are least likely
to claim, are more likely to be paying 12% of their income for a
lifetime, in National "Insurance".
And neither is NI invested in a pension pot on behalf of the
contributor. You also know that but choose to ignore the fact.
National Insurance benefits have never been enough to replace earned
income. When the average male industrial earnings were about £18 a week
gross, UK was £3 a week (both figures approximate for 1969/1970, but
very close either way).
That's why there is a separate scheme of (higher) means-tested benefits
(and there isn't even the pretence of tyhat being predicated upon
insurance, even though many pundits frequently claim that people "pay
in" for their means-tested benefits (they don't - they get them even if
they've never contrinuted a bean).

The means testing is the issue. It encourages many not to work. Many say
they won't work for 50p per hour and I don't blame them.

The other way round, surely? It's hard to see how a scheme which pays out
up £20,000 a year (£384.62 pw net) for an indefinite period (outside
London, more in London) provides less incentive to get a job than a scheme
which pays about £72 a week for 26 weeks max.

But for some reason, it seems to be OK to become old. but not out of
work for any other reason.

You treat being retired and being unemployed as the same thing. There's
your error.

They seem very similar to me.

Do they? They're nothing like the same thing.

Unemployment is supposed to be a misfortune which no-one seeks and which
they will tell you they wish to be out of, asap.

Retirement is something for which everybody wishes

Plenty dont and keep working because they prefer that to retirement.

(for themselves and everyone to whom they are related or with whom they
are acquainted)

Ditto.

and hopes it will go on for as long as possible.

Plenty dont and top themselves when they decide
that they dont like what they are stuck with.

One seems to get a lot of stick and the other is pandered to.

Ask yourself why that is (and whether "pandered to" is the correct way to
think about retirement).

We should encourage unemployed people to find work. They will usually
tell you they want work.

But when offered work, choose not to do that work.

Everyone should get a wage and be damned,

You can only get a wage for working.

Thats not true either. Some get a wage stay
out of the way of those doing the real work.

Wages are not appropriate for the retired OR for the unemployed, for that
reason.

True.

means testing discourages meaningful work.

See above.

I guess you being 'retired' will say ageism rules.

I'm not sure what you might mean by that. Ageism is very prevalent in
society, but I don't intend to be a complainant.

Not many people think it morally wrong to claim for a dent on your
car -
no matter how it was caused.

And?

I might have thought there were personal economic reasons, but hey!

There are plenty of reasons not to claim for damage to your car even
though it is covered. Sometimes those reasons prevail; sometimes they
don't. It has little or nothing to do with pensions, benefits,
unemployment or retirement.