On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 3:40:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:

and therefore costs more money and is more polluting in the long run.

Please give reliable, verifiable, independent data to support that contention. Otherwise, it is just wishful bull****.

Keep in mind how an "Energy Star" rating works.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rgy-star-label

Read it through, if you are willing to entertain actual facts.

RANT WARNING

We replaced our boiler when we moved into our house coming up ten years ago, in early 2008. We replaced a 50% efficient 400,000 BTUH unit with a 230,000 96% efficient unit (natural gas). So, we went from 200,000 BTU delivered to 220,800 BTU delivered. This unit also makes our hot water, typically between 45% and 50% efficient. We live in a 4,200 s.f. (Net of bathrooms, hallways and the kitchen per County standards) center-hall colonial built in 1890 and with 37 radiators and 38 windows. Our annualized gas bill is a bit under $200/month, so use that. For giggles, equalize the BTU delivered. We are using 57.5 % of the gas we would be using had we left the old system in place. Divide $2,400 by 0.575 and the annual savings are $1,774/year. In 2008, the net difference between the boiler we installed and a conventional boiler (80%) was a bit under $2,200. The entire system cost about $5,200 including the indirect storage tank. I did the labor with a certified master-plumber to inspect the results. But, comes to it, a high-efficiency, modulating, condensing boiler is actually less complex to install than a conventional boiler and vents directly to the outside (about 12' away in our case).

We have saved over $15,000 over the system-in-place, paying back almost 3 x the first cost. Over a conventional boiler, we have saved over $3,000. The "energy star" is that $3,000.

Now, our present boiler has an installed dry weight of less than 200 pounds.. A conventional boiler weighs 695 pounds, dry, installed. It has performed flawlessly since the day it was installed, needing no more than normal service - which as with most boilers is pretty basic. And, yes, it did require a quite-expensive additive on first-fill, but that was a one-time thing and part of the first-cost. Still testing good to-date.

As with many things, one gets what one pays for. No more. Often less. But the "energy star" thing is real.

One of the most basic problems of "modern times" is that the vast majority of the population in the United States does not remember thermal inversions over NYC or Los Angeles, or when rivers caught fire, or when water was unfit to drink (not uncommon now, either), or when black dust accumulated on window sills 'even in the country'. Or when entire rivers and lakes were 'dead' of all life. And how much effort, time and treasure it took to get back from that state. Just go to rural West Virginia and look at a top-cut coal mine if you need a reminder. That, together with the educational dumbing-down of the general population, increasing provincialism (the majority of Americans have never traveled voluntarily more than 200 miles from their birthplace, do not have a passport, have never visited a foreign country, do not have a college degree (even an Associate degree), and cannot read at an 8th grade level, and have a working vocabulary of less than 5,000 words (of over 300,000 words not including compounds or derivatives). And we are in a sorry state that has Lincoln spinning in his grave. In 2017, it is very nearly possible to actually fool all of the people (sheeple) most of the time.. And the present state of our government is absolute proof of that contention. _EVERYBODY_ of my parents generation understood war. Mostly everyone of my generation has a passing acquaintance with the concept - and has observed some of its effects directly. Some fewer of us were actually under 'threat' (for lack of a better word) of having to participate, and some tiny few (not me) were required to participate directly.

How soon we forget.

Getting back to Energy Star - we have but one planet, but one environment given to us. And if we F**K it up, we are done. Full stop. Take it as an ecological Paschal's Wager: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

Either we do something or we do not. If the threat is real and we do nothing, we are dead. If the threat is real and we do something, we *MAY* survive.. We know how bad it could be - Pittsburgh in 1963 was not a fun place. One could walk across the Hudson river without benefit of a bridge, and the Lehigh River ran orange and green, the Cuyahoga River regularly caught fire, and so forth.

End Rant

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA