On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 16:29:35 -0400, XjJHGD?? ?????? ? ??????? ??OPMFiN
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote on 8/29/2017 9:15 AM:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 21:55:55 -0400, DdbRuZ?? ?????? ? ??????? ??eLpvTM
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote on 8/28/2017 8:42 PM:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 15:31:43 -0400, zUFjUv?? ?????? ? ??????? ??JbAGmI
wrote:

wrote on 8/28/2017 1:29 PM:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 10:08:57 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:04:40 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 9:43:53 AM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 08:41:34 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 3:42:27 PM UTC-7, Ed Huntress wrote:
If you're interested in this story, it may be in print somewhere, but
it's also in this podcast that you can listen to online, with no
add-on apps:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/p...s-ukraine.html

Hint: They didn't do it themselves.

--
Ed Huntress

Hi Ed,
It is equally likely that they came from Samara.
They are based on Sergey Korolyov's closed cycle hardware design.
Sixty of them ended up in a warehouse and have been sold off over the years to various interested parties, including the one I saw run at Aerojet in the 90's.
Those were for the N30 done at OKB-1.
RD 180's are the same design.
Bob Ford from Lockheed and Bill Hoffman from Aerojet spent time finding this stuff as part of a team of Americans sent to Russia after the USSR dissolved.
Energomash builds and sells the RD 180 for use in America's heavy lift launch vehicles.
We build the bus but they supply the engines/motors.

Take Care

One way or another, it appears that the North Koreans failed
consistently when they tried to build their own motors, but suddenly
started having success -- with much more challenging rockets -- when
they switched to the Russian design.

--
Ed Huntress

The Russians had the same experience, Ed.
In fact, failure was part of their process.

Well, so did we. The thing about the Koreans that's different is that
they were able to leap over a whole string of growing pains (making a
mid-range rocket of their own that was reliable; stepping up to a
full-blown ICBM from a mediocre mid-range rocket, and having success
right from the start), because they just used someone else's motors.

Too bad they were able to get their hands on them.

They didn't expect to succeed on first attempts at any of this.

In the end, however, they ended up with motors that outperformed anything the US ever built. They had to because they lacked the resources that we had.
It takes a lot to make closed cycle rocket motors work.
We didn't think we could do so and get a man on the moon first.
And we had the money to build an expensive kluge and then did it.

Anyway, I don't think Lil Kim wants to launch anything at anyone.
He just doesn't want to be the next Saddam Hussein...

That's a delicious thought....

--
Ed Huntress

Ukraine is the worlds second largest criminal enterprise, Ed.
Preceded by Russia and followed by US Law Enforcement.

I'm not surprised by anything that is undertaken at this point.
Put off/disappointed but not shocked.
Anyway, worked on some of this stuff and knew people.
Met them anyway.

Thinking that any technology can be embargoed on a permanent basis is foolish in the same sense that teaching 15 year olds that abstinence is an effective method of birth control is successful.

Not going to happen.

I think you've nailed that foolish Ed right in the head.

Huh? He's talking about getting the technology from the outside, from
countries who went through the decade or so of failures that we all
went through. You were claiming anybody could make ICBMs from your
cartoon sketches.

That was a schematic diagram of a V2 rocket I showed you. That is the
mother of all modern rockets. Before that there was only the gunpowder
rocket invented by the Chinese long time ago.

After WWII the US captured and shanghaied Hitler's rocket scientists to
work for the US. That's how NASA got started.

A rocket has very little moving parts. It is actually easier to make
than a internal combustion engine.

Fat Boi Kim made leaps and bounds after he'd figured it out and then
incorporated all the sensors available in a smartphone to guide his
missiles.

When the U.S. Army Had its Own V-2 Rockets
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a24513/us-army-v-2-rockets/




Your diatribe is ridiculous. Here are real RD-series rocket motors:

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/38/0e/6b/3...1a2008d66c.jpg


A rocket motor is a very simple deign. I can look at the picture and
immediate can identify which part does what.

No you can't.


For you, I might have to hold your hand to point at the parts and
explain to you.

You wouldn't know which end is up.


The problem with you is that your technical know-how goes only as far as
metalworking (hammer, anvil and occasional arc welding) and, like
yourself, those North Korean squint-eyes can't make advanced rockets.
You are wrong.

The problem with you is that you think you can bull**** your way
through this.



Here's your cartoon "schematic":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_..._(updated).svg


The Space Shuttle engine is also very simple, if you know what you are
looking at.

No, it's not.


So, you're saying you can use that schematic to build an RD-250, and
you can fuel it with hydrogen and oxygen derived from water.

Why do you think someone can build an RD-250 with a V2 schematic?

Hey, you said it's all very simple.


A V2 schematic is for building a V2, you idiot!

You couldn't build a V2, either.


I merely demonstrated to you that way back the Nazis made the first
viable modern rocket weapon. Rocket science is not that difficult, Ed,
if you know how.

You don't know how. How many have you built?


Do I have to elaborate on every minute things in every sentence and
treat you like a retard (or a 5-year-old)?

You really ought to give it up. John may decide to blow your doors
off. He actually knows what you're talking about.




You are an idiot. The RD-250 is fueled with UDMH and the oxidizer is
dinitrogen tetroxide.

Of course, because that is RD-250.

But Fat Boi Kim is not building an RD-250, you nutjob!

If you had listened to that podcast, you'd realize that RD-250s are
EXACTLY what the North Koreans are using!

You're an empty bag of wind. Go find out what you're arguing about
before you argue.




Learning to use hydrogen as a fuel took NASA (in
it's earlier NACA incarnation) over a decade:

I believe you. The US shanghaied Hitler's finest German rocket
scientists, but NASA had rough start because the local Yankee rednecks
are slow learners.

As I said, you're an tempty bag of wind.


If you go into Silicon Valley you will see that most of the brains are
immigrants.




"Solving all these problems required an enormous amount of technical
expertise in rocket and aircraft fuels cultivated over a decade by
researchers at the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA)
Lewis Flight Propulsion Laboratory in Cleveland."

https://www.nasa.gov/content/liquid-...ce-exploration

So you shanghaied the Nazi rocket scientists to the US to get a head start.



It's not for North Korean neophytes.

North Koreans are very smart people. Look at their neighbouring
countries like China, South Korea, and Japan. They are very successful
in science and technology. Why would you think North Koreans are
lowbrows like your own rednecks?



You have no idea what you're talking about. Regarding the V2, it had a
range of 200 miles. We're talking here about a range of 5,000 miles.
The technology is vastly advanced from the V2.

Fat Boi Kim does not need to copy V2. Fat Boi Kim does not need to
shanghai any Nazi rocket scientists.

The US Army shanghaied the Nazi rocket scientists and copied the V2, and
that's how your NASA got started.

When the U.S. Army Had its Own V-2 Rockets:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a24513/us-army-v-2-rockets/



The North Koreans showed no signs of being able to accomplish it --
until they got their hands on the Russian-designed RD-250 engines.

I call that speculative bull****.

All the smart North Koreans banged their heads together, put their minds
to it, and achieved this technological breakthrough.

Remember, genetically North Koreans are very close to Chinese, South
Koreans and Japanese (you can tell they all have squint-eyes). They are
all very smart people.



Quick !!! Come see !!!

Fat Boi Kim is lobbing missiles like there is no tomorrow !!!

Look at how many times Fat Boi Kim had fired off his missiles just this
year alone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_missile_tests#Timeline
2017 – North Korea test-fired a Pukguksong-2 missile over the Sea of
Japan. This was the first launch of the new medium-range ballistic
missile (February 11, 2017).

2017 – North Korea launches four ballistic missiles from the
Tongchang-ri launch site in the northwest. Some flew 620 mi (1,000 km)
before falling into the Sea of Japan. (March 6, 2017)

2017 – North Korea test-fired a medium-range ballistic missile from its
eastern port of Sinpo into the Sea of Japan (April 4, 2017)

2017 – North Korea test-fired an unidentified land-based missile from
the naval base in Sinpo but it exploded almost immediately after the
takeoff (April 15, 2017).

2017 - North Korea test-fired an unidentified missile from Pukchang
airfield (April 28,
2017). Missile, believed to be a medium-range KN-17 ballistic missile,
falters and breaks apart minutes after liftoff.

2017 - North Korea test-fired a Hwasong-12 missile from a test site in
the area of Kusong (May 13, 2017). The missile, later revealed to be an
intermediate range ballistic missile, traveled 30 minutes, reached an
altitude of more than 2,111.5 km, and flew a horizontal distance of 789
km (489 miles), before falling into the Sea of Japan. Such a missile
would have a range of at least 4,000, reaching Guam, to 6,000 km.

2017- North Korea test-fired another Pukguksong-2 medium-range ballistic
missile from Pukchang airfield (May 21, 2017), which traveled
approximately 300 miles before falling into the Sea of Japan. The
missile landed about 217 miles from North Korea's east coast.

2017 - North Korea Fired a Short Range Ballistic Missile into the Sea of
Japan (May 29,
2017). It traveled 450 km.

2017 - North Korea fired several missiles into the Sea of Japan (June 8,
2017). They are believed to be anti-ship missiles. The South Korean
military said the launches show the reclusive regime's "precise
targeting capability."

2017 - North Korea tested a new rocket engine that could possibly be
fitted to an intercontinental ballistic missile (June 23, 2017).

2017 – North Korea tested its first intercontinental ballistic missile
(ICBM) named Hwasong-14 on July 4. It launched from the Panghyon
Aircraft Factory 8 km southeast of Panghyon Airport. It was aimed
straight up at a lofted trajectory and reached more than 2,500 km into
space. It landed 37 minutes later, more than 930 km from its launch
site, into Japan's exclusive economic zone. Aiming long, the missile
would have traveled 7,000-8,000 km or more, reaching Alaska, Hawaii, and
maybe Seattle. Its operational range would be farther, bringing a 500 kg
payload to targets in most of the contiguous United States 9,700 km away.

2017- The 14th missile test carried out by North Korea in 2017 was
another ICBM launched at 23:41 North Korea time (15:41 GMT) from Chagang
Province in the north of the country on July 28, 2017. Los Angeles,
Denver, Chicago, Boston, and New York appear to be within range. The
missile's reentry vehicle (RV) was seen by people in Japan as it entered
the atmosphere and landed near the northernmost Japanese island,
Hokkaido. Analysis later revealed that the RV broke up on re-entry;
further testing would be required. The CIA made an assessment expecting
adequate performance of the RV under the different stresses of a
shallower trajectory towards the continental US.

2017: North Korea test fires three short range ballistic missiles from
the Kangwon province on August 26. Two travel approximately 250
kilometers in a northeastern direction and one explodes immediately
after launch.

2017: On August 29, 2017, at 6 AM local time, North Korea launched a
ballistic missile over Northern Japan.

That's what the podcast was about. ALL of those happened in the last
year, after they got their hands on Russian-designed rocket motors.
Before that, it was one failure after another.

--
Ed Huntress