On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:02:16 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

snip

I think you are confused.

I *know* you are, as you are about to demonstrate. ;-)

There is no difference between not paying for something that others have
to pay or being paid "FIT".

Of course there is. How much can you *earn* out of having loft
installation fitted (even if fitted 'free' paid for by others)?

The FIT is a food bank where people take the food (for free) and then
sell it.


For example you think its OK for someone to get a grant to save energy
as nobody is paying for it?

Nope. I think it has some moral / social merit to try to encourage as
many people as possible to *save* energy, on behalf of the whole
country. It is often means tested and only applied under specific
circumstances.

The grants for insulation come from the same 5% green tax on energy that
the FIT payments come from.

But as I said, no one (householders) makes money from having loft
insulation fitted. The savings they make aren't index linked or
guaranteed for 2-0 years (even though they may turn out to be).

People avoid the congestion charge because they have a subsidised
electric car,

Yup, and that is also questionable.

others have to pay the tax.

In the case of IC vehicles it's generally pretty logical where the
most polluting paying the most money. With electric / hybrid vehicles
the net green benefit is highly questionable so any grants are
potentially as bogus as the FIT payments.

IF everyone when out a bought an electric car do you think 1) The
electricity supply infrastructure would be able to cope, 2) the
overall pollution (inc manufacturing and disposal) would be any / much
less (if at all less) or that they would carry on offering grants
(often paid to those 'with' by those who are 'without') for any of it?

We all know it's all just some BS because without the subsidies most
'green' energy solutions couldn't stand on their own two feet and
'most people' don't do something (even if it might benefit them)
without some sort of incentive.

If someone told me I could possibly save £50 pa on my electricity bill
by swapping supplier I (and the vast majority) wouldn't be bothered. I
CBA to clear the loft out to get free loft insulation so paid for it
and fitted it myself when I wanted to.


FIT payments for solar PV are the commercial rates, its what the
government decide was needed to get people to spend their own money on a
project the government didn't want to spend on.

Exactly ... fooling a tiny minority into spending their own money on a
highly questionable 'project'.

.....


In fact I admit I get more from my solar thermal panels in "FIT" than I
would get if it were solar PV. I get paid 19p a unit of heat rather than
the 16p for solar PV.

Why should you get paid anything at all? If you were paying your water
heating costs before, why should 'we' be paying for / towards them
now?

There is also no way to export that heat.

Apart from a community project and then it make sense if you are
exporting energy to *others*.

(However it doesn't cause grid instability like solar PV might.)


You don't get a grant to install solar thermal or solar PV, you pay for
it and the government pays you back over a long time for doing as it asks.

Yes, I know.

It can take 10 or 12 years before you get the money back.

Or less, depending on how close you got to the initial FIT theft price
cutoff (biggest rates / cheapest panels).

A neighbour took out a bank loan to pay for his solar PV system on the
second tier FIT rates. I think he has nearly paid off the loan with
the money saved / earned in two years.

Only after that time do you actually stand to make a "profit" for your
risk.

Yes, and that time can be quite short, depending on the cost (inc
size) and efficiency of the system and how you use the energy
produced.

You may not make any profit if things go wrong and you need lots
of repairs as the government doesn't pay for them.

I didn't say there were no risks ... and those risks may turn out to
be higher than some first thought if the panels don't retain the
efficiency they were promised and the companies guaranteeing them go
down the pan (unless *we* are ring-fencing that as well). sigh

So, I repeat, it's nothing to do with energy, it's nothing to do with
'green', it's all to do with profiteering from others (especially when
it's (PV) neither a good source of energy (in the UK) or 'green').

Cheers, T i m