On 12/30/2016 11:27 AM, Muggles wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 00:15:27 -0800, T wrote:
I can't find any scripture that tells us to ask people
who have passed away to pray for us. Jesus is
supposed to be our intercessor when it comes to
that side... I haven't come across scripture that
says the dead in Christ have access to the living, or
vice versa.

Hi Maggie,

Hi Todd..

Do you believe in the Trinity?

I do.

The word "Trinity" is a Latin word and there is not one
single word of Latin in the Bible. The Trinity came
out of the same Nicaean council that compiled the
Bible and the Nicaean Creed.

"Trinity" just describes something that is found in the Bible: the
father, son, and holy spirit. It doesn't matter if the origin of the
word is Latin or a Hebrew word. It describes something actually in the
Bible.
If you believe in the Trinity, then you are not
"sola scriptura" (the Bible Only).

On the contrary... a word that describes something in the Bible doesn't
negate "solar scriptura".

So it is okay to believe in a word that doesn't
appear in the Bible? You are confusing me.

The references you are referring to about the trinity
are also in the old testament. And I assure your that
Jews do not believe in the trinity.

The Nicaean Council was the one how cemented it in place
the concept of the Trinity so there would be no
misunderstandings, especially with all the heresies
running about.

The Bible did not exist for three centuries. We are also
told by the Bible to hold to the traditions the founders
(Apostles) taught us:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the
traditions which ye have been taught, whether
by word [i.e. oral tradition] or our epistle
-- II Thessalonians 2:15

I praise you brethren, that you remember me in
all things and hold fast to the traditions [paradoseis]
just as I delivered [paredoka, a verbal form of
paradosis] them to you"
--First Corinthians 11:2

If "solar scriptura" was correct, then we wouldn't have folks
going off on such tangents when they read the Bible.

"Let's all throw burning coals on our adversaries heads and
not call anyone Father, except our father in heaven. Or
Teacher for that matter."

Think anything got interpenetrated there? That is why we
need the traditions spoken of in the Bible (i.e the
authority of the Church) to make sure we know what things
are suppose to mean.

By "Authority of the Church", I mean the Ancient Church
(A.k.a the Orthodox Church), not the Catholic Church.
I mean the seven holy councils.

And you are trusting the authority of the Ancient
Church in its teachings. Just as you are trusting their
authority over what went in the Bible.
Not everything Christians believe is in the Bible. This
one is though.

If it's not in the Bible there's a reason it's not there.

Very true. So you are relying on the Church as to
what did and did not get into the Bible? The Bible
did not come first.


We Ancient Faith'ers have a long history of the asking
others for their prayers, whether they are in Heaven
or on Earth.

There are no Bible scriptures that teach praying to anyone in heaven.

Depends on what your mean by praying. Am I praying to
you by asking you for your prayers? We "communicate"
with the Saints through the power of the Holy Spirit
as they do with us. We are very well aware that the saints
are no god. They are loved ones, not gods.

Christ alone is our intercessor in heaven.

Everyone has to go thought Christ. True. Doesn't
matter whether you are on heaven or earth.

The first time a saint prays for you, you
can never be dissuaded of their existence. Those in
heaven have a lot of access to us. As beloved Saint
Paul says, "love never ends" (1 Corinthians 13).

I'm not being critical of you.. OK? I've never understood praying to
saints. It's not in the Bible.

Actually, I did give you references. You just did not like
them. Also you are disregarding II Thessalonians 2:15
about traditions.

Why pray to Christ's servant when you can
talk directly with the master himself?

Absolutely. No saint is more approachable than
God. Sains pray for you to God, just as you would.

Why again would you ask anyone for their prayers?
Why would I ask you for your prayers? Why not
just go to the man himself?

The answer is that praying for someone else is a
selfless act and God loves that. Jesus is the
God of Love.


I personally have had several Saints pray for me. And I have a
personal relationship with one who
chose me.

Doesn't that put Christ lower on the priority list?

Absolutely not!

Doesn't it say that
no-one is to come before Christ?

Correct. If I ask you for your prayers, am
I putting you before God?

I really don't understand.

I don't understand why this is an issue to you.

Think of the saints as loved ones. They don't
forget about you. When they pray for you, they
pray to the same Jesus you pray to.

He has even spoken to me in English before. It gets
really interesting when Jesus joins the conversation.

Christ should be first in the conversation, not second.

When others ask you for their prayers, are they putting
Christ second? Remember that Christ listens in on all
conversations with the saints. He knows what you are
asking them.

And no saint is more approachable than Jesus.

Jesus isn't a saint...

Jesus is God. Creator of Heaven and Earth. Where did
you get the idea I though he was a saint?

he's the Christ- son of the living God. To call
him a saint removes his standing as king. I can't see how calling
Jesus a saint glorifies him?

Who called him a saint?


My personal belief is that the Lord loves it when we
pray for others, not just ourselves.

I've no problem with people on earth praying for others here
on earth. :-)

Only not with loved ones in heaver? They can't pray for you?

Also notice I said "we". The Church Triumphant in
heaven and the Church Militant on Earth. "We".
We are not abandoned and forgotten by the Church
Triumphant.

But, there is no biblical reference that supports or encouraged prayer
communication between those in heaven and earth.

Maybe you read "Our communion in prayer with the saints"
differently than I do?

Our communion in prayer with the saints is the
realization of the bond between Christians on
earth and the Heavenly Church. (Heb 12:22-23)

Our communion in prayer with the saints is the
realization of the bond between Christians on
earth and the Heavenly Church. (Heb 12:22-23)

Asking a saint for their prayers is no different than
me asking you for your prayers. And, of course, it
is whatever you feel comfortable with.

Saints on earth are different from those in heaven.

If you mean live folks, there are no saints on earth.
Saintly people, yes. We are called to be saints, yes.
You are not a Saint until you pass on and get judged
by Jesus.

Love never ends.



Yours in Christ,

Likewise

One of the reason I want to go to Heaven is because I want to
be with those loving people that have prayed for me. I don't
know exactly what Heaven is, but I do know God resides there and
there is a lot of love there.

Glory be to God!
-T