On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 3:47:16 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 12:23 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 1:22:05 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
I suspect
this is true of many folks as it seems common for people to UNPLUG
their smoke detectors when they start chirping. Then, forget
to buy the battery and end up operating with no smoke detectors
in place (at least, we hear of homes lost to fire wherein the
smoke detectors had no batteries in them -- this seems like a
logical explanation of what transpired).
How "common" do you think this is?
It do4esn't matter how common it is to the folks who failed to
replace their batteries! : It's not common for folks to get
struck by lightning -- yet I don't run outside and stand under
a tree when we have an electrical storm! :
You're changing the subject instead of answering my question. I didn't ask
how about terrible it is for those that have been impacted by their mistake,
I asked you how "common" you think it is.
You said it was "common" for people to remove the batteries and leave them
out. I say it isn't. A tragedy, yes, but common? I think not.
How long is "leave them out" to satisfy you? If they are "out" for an hour,
a day, a week? The time when they are not installed represents the time
when the detector is inoperative. The period of time when the occupants are
not protected.
Do people leave them out *forever*? Doubtful. Do they leave them out for
weeks at a time? Probably. How many things do you "drop everything" to
address the instant they draw attention to themselves (chirp, chirp)?
Or, do you put it on the shopping list for "next week"? Or, hope to
remember it??
There you go changing the subject again. What does "length of time" have to
with my comment related to use of word "common". Perhaps you haven't grasped
the point I am discussing or perhaps you are trying to confuse the issue.
You said it's a common practice for people to leave the batteries out. I say
it's not "common" in relation to how many detectors there are installed across
the globe.
Whether the batteries are left out for a night, a day or a year before the
fatal fires starts has nothing to do with the commonality of the practice.
How often they are left out as compared how often they are not is all that
counts when determining how "common" the practice is.
From a 9/2015 NFPA report:
Smoke Alarm Power Sources
Hardwired smoke alarms were present in 48% of reported home fires with smoke
alarms. Alarms powered by battery only were present in in 46% of reported home
fires.
In reported home fires in which the fire was large enough to activate the
alarm,
- Hardwired smoke alarms operated 94% of the time.
- Battery-powered smoke alarms operated in four out of five (80%) fires.
Reasons that Smoke Alarms Did Not Operate when Present in Large Enough Fires
--------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In fires in which the smoke alarms were present but did not operate,
- Almost half (46%) of the smoke alarms had missing or disconnected
batteries. Nuisance alarms were the leading reason for disconnected
smoke alarms.
- Dead batteries caused one-quarter (24%) of the smoke alarm failures.
- Only 7% of the failures were due to hardwired power source problems,
including disconnected smoke alarms, power outages, and power shut-offs.
So, in response to your comment, below:
"Common? Until I see the numbers, I'll vote No."
I vote *yes* (70% of the fires!) -- unless you'd care to offer some OTHER
numbers?
Right, in 70% of homes *in which the smoke alarms were present but did not
operate* dead or missing batteries was the cause. No one denies that dead
or missing batteries will cause a smoke detector not to operate. The problem
is (once again) that that is not what we are discussing.
I'll try again: You said that the practice of leaving batteries out after
they are removed due to chirping is "common". I, once again, say that when
compared to all the cases where the batteries are *not* left out, the
practice is *not* common. The *practice of leaving the batteries out* is not
common. Does it happen? Yes. Do bad things happen when someone does that? Yes.
Is it common? Not in the grand scheme of all detectors everywhere.
Can you stick to that statement and tell me how you know that the practice is
common? Tell me how many times batteries are left out vs. how many times
they are replaced. Citing statistics related to how many smoke
detectors didn't operate due to missing batteries (46%) does nothing to
support your claim that the practice of leaving batteries out is "common". All
that does is tell us that missing batteries is a common cause for smoke
detectors not to operate. Well, yeah. I think that's pretty obvious.
Now, citing statistics that show 55% of the millions upon millions of smoke
detectors that needed batteries did not have them replaced would indeed
indicate that the practice of leaving the batteries out is common.
Yes, you hear about the homes/lives that were lost to those fires, but you
don't hear as much about the people whose homes and/or lives were saved
because their detectors worked. The good news doesn't often make the
headlines because it doesn't sell.
Of course! But, they were saved because they *did* replace their
batteries. As *we* do! The difference is, we don't wait for the
detectors to chirp to prompt us to do so.
When detector 1 chirps, do you JUST replace it's battery? What about
the other detectors? Should you anticipate that they will be needing
replacement soon? Or, wait for them to start chirping as well?
(How is being proactive in that case different from my approach of
anticipating detector 1's failure?!)
"Family doesn't die in house fire. House saved. More at 11."
My guess is that "common" is not the right word to apply to the sad
situations.
Note that modern smoke/CO detectors *acknowledge* this practice
by requiring 110VAC operation (with battery for "backup") *or*
having 10 year batteries, etc.
10 year batteries are not required nor do all "modern" battery operated
detectors have 10 year batteries. "Modern" detectors that use standard
batteries are readily available on the consumer market.
And for new homes, they must have an AC primary power source!
This implicitly acknowledges the fact that batteries DON'T get
replaced and that this leads to loss of life (see above)
Scroll down past the 10 year battery section he
http://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/.../smoke-alarms/
So, obviously "enough" people died because they (effectively)
disabled their detectors to merit changes in the way those
detectors are designed/made. That suggests *someone* thought
it enough of a problem to address it!
Addressed it by offering options, but not by *requiring* it.
A problem doesn't have to be "common" for it to be addressed. It is not
"common" for people to be killed by the Takata air bag inflator ripping
through their necks, yet over 23 million inflators have been recalled.
My only objection is to your use of the word "common". In terms of the
number of detectors installed, the practice of taking the batteries out,
and leaving them out, is not "common". An issue worth addressing?
Absolutely. Common? Until I see the numbers, I'll vote No.
See above. Or, do your own research if you distrust mine.
See above. Please cite relevant statistics.
Just FYI...
Many new-ish battery operated smoke and/or CO detectors are designed such
that they cannot be (easily) mounted if they don't have batteries installed.
A spring loaded tab extends in such a way as to prevent either mounting or
(with some older models) from closing the battery door.
Obviously, making the mounting impossible/very difficult is the best method
to help prevent the "use' of a detector without batteries. The user would
have to physically put the detector someplace else (hopefully not in a
drawer) while they run out and buy batteries.
Most detectors are *easily* removed. Ours require a twist to unlock the
detector from the base, then unplug the three conductor cable assembly.
Thereafter, where you put the detector is up to you -- the *house*
won't complain that the detector is "missing"!
I didn't say anything about detectors be hard to *remove*, I said that
the newer ones are difficult to *install* without batteries - as a safety
feature. Let me explain:
In the old days, you could twist the detector off the base, remove the
batteries from the back, and simply twist the detector back on, saying to
yourself "I'll pick up some batteries tomorrow". On some models, you could
open the front panel, take the batteries out and close the door. Tomorrow
comes and goes, as does the next day and the next, until that detector is
forgotten about and people die.
These days, most detectors will not allow the user to twist the detector
back onto the base without batteries installed. This adds a layer of safety
because the detector will (hopefully) be left out in the open as a reminder
that it has no batteries.
Having a bit of clutter around the house is not an effective deterrent.
If the device was the size of a dishwasher, it might be ("Bob, will you
PLEASE get some batteries so we can get this damn dishwasher-sized device
out of the middle of the living room??"). I have the old smoke detector
for the bedroom hallway sitting on a box of CAT5 wire, here -- has probably
been here for months (as long as the box of wire!) since the time when
I replaced it's *partner* (and opted to replace both to ensure they
were electrically compatible with each other instead of risking an
incompatibility)
I could just as easily have put it in a drawer, cabinet, garage shelf,
etc.
So, if I understand you correctly, the one sitting on the box of CAT5 wire is
no longer needed? If that is correct, then once again, your example isn't
relevant.
When you walk by that *un-needed* detector, you may say to yourself "I really
should dispose of that (properly)". When someone removes a smoke detector
that can't be reinstalled until the batteries are replaced and places on a
table, they are likely to say "I really should get batteries for that
before I die in a fire."
Which statement holds more emotional weight and will probably get acted upon
more quickly?
What *will* get complaints is a detector that chirps every few minutes
until you "feed it". Given how easily it can be disconnected, it's
obvious why so many *do* get disconnected -- "while I remember to run out
and buy batteries" (which I suspect is rarely done "right now")
See my paragraph above. A detector that can't be remounted without batteries
being installed first is much safer than the old style. Yes, you can still
disconnect it, but hopefully people will now say "I'll pick up some
batteries tomorrow. Since I can't reinstall this detector until I do, I'll
put it right "here" as a reminder."
Like the old detector that's been sitting here, by me?
You mean that *un-needed* one? Please try to stay relevant.
When my basement CO detector came to the end of it's 7 year lifespan, I
took the batteries out to stop the chirping. I could not reinstall the
unit. I brought it upstairs, put it on the kitchen table and then
put my cars keys on top of it. I doubt that *I* would have reinstalled it
without the batteries anyway, but I'm sure that some folks would have. I'm
sure many lives have been saved because of that feature.
You can't legislate or design-in common sense. I can put a dead battery
in a detector and reinstall it "so I know where I've stored it". I can
put a detector in a drawer, garage, etc.
Nice stretch! Yep, I'll bet *that* is a common practice. "Let me locate a
completely dead battery so I can reinstall this detector that was chirping
from weak batteries. Good thing I have that stash of non-chirp causing,
completely dead batteries lying around."
I designed a "marine" autopilot many years ago. I wanted to install
an annunciator to alert the "skipper" that we were approaching the
programmed destination (otherwise, he would likely go aft or below deck
to work on something *else* now that the autopilot had freed him
from the tedium of steering the boat.
Boss laughed and said, "The first thing they'll do is cut the wires
to your alarm. *THEN* what will you do?? (to protect them from
themselves)"
IIRC, our current AC/DC detectors will let you silence the "chirp"
for some period of time (hours??). But, it won't go away indefinitely.
Despite the fact that AC power is ensuring the detector continues
to provide its protective function.
So, when it becomes annoying, we *will* unplug it and set it aside
(counting on the next unit to protect us). As we *rarely* buy batteries,
its not likely that this detector will be put back into service in
short order. Hence our practice of simply replacing batteries yearly.
The expense isn't going to bankrupt us. And, doing so annually on New
Year's (instead of August 19th or May 27th) makes it a memorable task.