On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 9:28:04 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/15/2015 6:26 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 4:53:58 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
You must understand that we cared about him.
I assumed that. However, I still stand by my assertion that I'll gladly
refrain from imposing MY will on *you* in order to ensure *you* can't
impose yours on *me*!
The fact taht he (knowingly) hurt others is a testament to his
character (or character flaws). But, you're similarly to blame:
your character "flaw" of "giving a sh*t" :-/
He didn't just hurt himself, he
hurt everyone who cared about him. I get very upset when I see someone I
care about killing themselves by slow suicide.
What about folks who make bad investment decisions? Or, who pick
bad "life partners"? Or, who have offspring when it's "obvious"
that they aren't prepared/qualified to be (good) parents??
You can come up with all sorts of rationalizations to justify
whatever "rules" *you* think SOMEONE ELSE should follow; but, they
can just as easily come up with rules for *you* -- that you might
not agree with!
GB knew we all cared about
him and knew it would upset us if we caught him smoking. The Libertarian in
me believes any adult should be able to do whatever he/she/it wants as long
as they don't harm anyone else. The operative word is "harm". If they know
their self destructive behavior will cause severe emotional distress to
those who care about them, what would you call that?
Ans: Their choice!
What are you advocating? That folks should ensure no one cares about them
and, thus, obtain the greatest "liberties" for themselves in doing so?
I call that hurting
friends and family. Those who inhale the byproducts of combustion from
burning mind and body destroying substances are drug addicts and complete
idiots. Perhaps I'm strange in some way but seeing that kind of behavior
angers me. _
There are lots of behaviors that I object to. I've learned not to let them
"anger me" -- because I don't have a right to impose my judgements on
another being. All I can do is try to be "responsible" with the life
*I* have been given. And, to offer assistance/support to others if
I can -- even if what they are wanting to do goes against my beliefs or
practices.
A lover once asked me: (quote) "Is suicide justified?" She worked at
a suicide prevention hotline which is probably why the subject was
on her mind.
I *immediately* (i.e., without even THINKING about the question)
replied: "In what circumstances?"
She wouldn't give me even *that* much "wiggle room": "Is suicide
justified?" I.e., forget the "circumstances". Does a person have
the right to take their own life?
This is a more fundamental question. You don't get the luxury of
being able to qualify your response with some set of conditions
(that make it easier/more comfortable for you to adhere to that
opinion). I.e., if it's justified in some set of circumstances,
then why isn't it in *all* circumstances??
Applying your above argument wrt your friend, what claim would you
have on him if *he* opted to commit suicide with pills, a handgun,
etc.? What's the difference in his chosen approach to that outcome??
Don't assume I've ever imposed my will on anyone. My ideals are Libertarian but that doesn't mean I can't care about someone who's being self destructive. I'd have to ask, would you stand by and do nothing if you could stop a young person on the edge of the roof of a tall building about to jump off and fall to their death? Would you join the crowd chanting,"Jump! Jump! Jump!"? Many people stopped from committing suicide get help and change their minds but if they're determined, they'll off themselves when no one is watching. You won't find old folks jumping off a building because it hurts too damn much. ^_^
I had to dig around a bit on The Interweb to find some information to plagiarize but there were no real surprises except for the magnitude of the problem.
Approximately 30,000 people commit suicide each year in the U.S. and 80% were men. Overall, males kill themselves at rates that are 4 times higher than females. But in certain age groups men are even more vulnerable. The suicide rate for those ages 20-24 is 5.4 times higher for males than for females of the same age.
In the older age groups suicide is even more a "male problem." After retirement, the suicide rate skyrockets for men, but not for women. Between the ages of 65-74 the rate is 6.3 times higher for males. Between the ages of 75-84, the suicide rate is 7 times higher. And for those over 85, it is nearly 18 times higher for men than it is for women.
Dr.Thomas Joiner proposes that there are three key motivational aspects which contribute to suicide. These a 1) a sense of not belonging, of being alone, 2) a sense of not contributing, of being a burden 3) a capability for suicide, not being afraid to die. All three of these motivations or preconditions must be in place before someone will attempt suicide.
Although women, too, can take their own lives when they suffer at the intersection of "feeling alone, feeling a burden, and not being afraid to die," this is clearly a more male phenomenon. Throughout our lives males take more risks and invite injury more often. We are taught that "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" and "no pain, no gain."
We often invest so much of our lives in our work, when we lose our jobs or retire we feel worthless, unable to contribute. It's a short step to feeling we are a burden on those we love. We also put less effort into developing and maintaining friendships so we can come to feel more and more alone.
There's a lot more on the site where I swiped the information and I think everyone should take a look but I'm not "forcing you". ^_^
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-c...t-people-miss/
http://preview.tinyurl.com/nxnnphp
[8~{} Uncle Pained Monster