In one corner we have Mark "****bag" Wieber, world class liar, who destroyed this newsgroup with his cross posting to political groups.

In the other corner we have Jonathan "****bag" Ball who has no place in this group and almost never posts on metalworking. It's most likely that Mark Wieber dragged Jonathan Ball into this group with his cross posting to political groups.

It would be nice if both were evolved in head on car accidents trying to avoid Ray Keller but failed.