"harryagain" wrote in message
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
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On 17/09/14 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Clive George wrote:
They were all capitalist countries anyway, first, creating successful
companies like Volvo, Saab, and others, which provided the financial
base for them to try their socialist experiments.

Socialism is compatible with capitalism surely? Most successful
countries have a mixture of both, and the large ones all do.

Of course. But like all mixtures, getting the proportions right is the
difficult part.

Of course, there are those who are essentially Marxists, because they see
society as comprised as an endless struggle between the proletariat and
capital.

Not realising that capital bought up all the socialist movements 20 years
ago.

Or that in any case, it is a 19th century visions of a society that has
long since ceased to exist.

What you need to understand is that the game of thrones that is Western
politics, consists in essentially saying you are on the side of X, whilst
being firmly on the other..

So called liberal and social democrats are hired by large corporate
interests to make more laws favouring large corporates, under the guise
of 'being on the people's side'. The end game is that no one is actually
employed except by state funded industries or large corporates.

That way they will all do as they are told, and there won't be any
entrepreneurs to rock the boat.

Then with education in the hands if the state, and the Law in the hands
of the state, and the media firmly regulated by the state, no off message
scripts can be uttered, nor will they be tolerated.

You will dutifully buy each shiny new thing the state allows you to, with
the money they took from you in taxes being divided in two and handed
back with a note attached 'and be grateful'

Traditional socialism depended on the fact that workers were in fact
needed to multiply capital. They had, collectively, power.

Today, they are not and have not. Robots do a better job. Robots dont
vote.

All those people sitting in social housing have only two political uses.
To vote for Labour, and to consume, with productive workers money, taken
in taxes, and 'redistributed' via benefits or make-work public sector
jobs, the shiny new products of capitalisms invention. They are
otherwise surplus to requirements politically and economically, and the
Labour party has completely failed to address this point. In fact it has
worsened it, making up more makework jobs as it goes along. In addition,
it has upped taxes, worsened immigration, thus driving up house prices,
and the need for more public sector jobs in e.g. the NHS and education,
whilst lowering effective wages for the corporate wage-slave force. IN
addition it has increase regulation to such an extent that - as in
Scandinavia - there is no point in setting up your own business, because
the overhead of complying with regulations on employment and health and
safety means that any one who employs half a dozen people is de facto
breaking half a dozen regulations before they even get on the payroll.

And so they can. if they represent a threat to anyone with the ear of
government, be closed down for being 'in breach'...

And whilst you can have robot factories and wage slave workers toiling
away doing either nothing at all, or making shiny new things, in the case
of shiny new things someone has to be in a position to buy them, and
thats where banks come in. They lend the money that will never be repaid,
so that the average citizen is in debt. Or beholden to the state or a big
corporate for his job. In essence they have free access to printed money
at almost zero rates of interest, to lend to people who they end up
owning lock stock and barrel.

So the final effect is that an elite, comprising political parties like
the Labour Party, Banks and Big Corporates,and Big Media, on paper own
everything, and the citizens of the country own nothing. Worse, they are
in debt to the above organisations one way or another. And they cant even
transfer anything they do have, because that will be taxed too. Even just
owning something - a car perhaps, or a house - is taxable.

It is a slow steady transfer of capital from individuals to the State,
the Banks and to those who own the robots.

Because we don't need no stinking people do we?

Economically, we are in a very very dark place. The machinery of p
production needs no people, and the people are having their power and
their wealth stripped from them. And it is ending up in a very few
hands - of top bankers, media people, politicians and corporate boards.
All the people who support such things as the EU.

A for the rest? let them eat lentils instead., toss a few billion at te
greens to let them promote the idea that we must all live on a cupful of
brown rice a day, and be powered by windmills as electricity prices
treble and quadruple. Heck the Greens will even tell you we need less
people, to 'save the planet' Which fits in nicely with the sort of
classist cleansing that the elite would like to see.

Which is why Diane Abbot absolutely considers state education is the
thing to be preserved, except for her own kids. Come on, she wants them
to be part of the new elite, not the scrapheap.

Cameron and Miliband are far closer to each other than either is to me.
Or any other ordinary decent sort of bloke I meet.

In China, the career of choice is as a communist party official, because
that's where you get paid money and do less work, and have power.

IT is however all falling apart. Largely because of one thing. Robots
need energy, and we are running out, and Robots need capital, which is
all about repaying the cost of them with what they produce, and if there
is no market because you have stripped the money from everybody, they
cant sell their products, and likewise bankers who confidently expect to
be paid all that interest on all that money they printed, won't get paid
if no one can afford to service their debt.

The top 1% may, on paper, own the 99% of everything that they do, but
what good is it? If they dont have an army of lawyers and bailiffs to
take possession if the debtors default? And even if they do? what good is
it? they don't want assets, they want income. Wore an enormous amount of
debt was consumer debt (Labour 'investing in people'), lent to people to
buy stuff that they have dutifully consumed. You can take my shut, but
the money I used to buy a MacDeathburger, is gone, for good.

And all this wonderful plan has come to and end because there are, in the
end 'limits to growth'. Without exponential growth, none of the debt
models work. And throwing more debt at an economy that cannot expand for
other reasons than lack of capital, doesn't work. Without access to more
and more debt, governments cant employ the makeworkers, and their power
is diminished. Without more debt the consumers wont buy the shiny new
products from MCApple**** factories.

Now it so happens that everyine is waking up to this, and 'Scottish
independence' is just a ruse employed by a sharp bunch of conmen who call
themselves 'national socialists', to blame it on the brits, and get more
political power. It will never succeed - can never succeed - because what
is promised is impossible, and what will be possible will be worse than
what they have.


And so people will again realise, as they are all over Europe and the
West, that those who say they are your friend and call themselves
socialists, don't give a flying **** about you. They just want your vote,
so they can swan around Being Important whilst you play with your X box
and jerk off to Jennifer Lawrence in your state supplied social housing,
on your state supplied benefits, and take your state supplied
anti-depressants to stop feeling quite so miserable.


Whatever socialism means in theory, that is what it has come to mean in
Practice. A dreary little life of politically correct conformity,
according to whatever lifestyle your Glorious Leaders feel is the one you
are going to get, where you own nothing, are worth nothing, and any
initiative to make something - for sale, or of yourself - has been
carefully educated out in the comprehensive you were forced to attend,
and made illegal by countless Acts of social legislation designed
allegedly to protect you from yourself, but which actually protect the
status quo and the new elite, from you.
.

And you wonder how people could go and convert to Islam, join a bloody
Jihad and cheerfully slice off peoples' heads for You Tube? OR get a
bunch of automatic weapons and shoot up a young socialist camp? I dont. I
understand completely. There but for the grace of God and a good
education that I probably didn't deserve, go I.



Hmm, I actually agree with most of that.

More fool you.

Just another example of senile old farts howling about how
the entire world has gone to rack and ruin since they were
running things.

The ancient greeks used to sit around in their togas or whatever
they wore and howl in EXACTLY the same silly way.