On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 2:49:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
An outside engineering firm brings a design for

a new sander to a Big Box Store, and their team evaluates the service

life, the usablility, the design, and the most important aspect, cost

to manufacture. There is no doubt that some of the BBSs have an

interest in the companies they choose, but don't own them. They do

however, own all other aspects of their product including the

engineering designs, distribution, etc.




Not sure I agree witth that at at Robert. I think you're giving way too

much credit for the involvment by the retailer. I don't believe they get

into it to that level, at all. I think that at the very best, they chose a

tier one manufacturer that they may want to represent, and they then

negotiate for exclusivity, or some other prefered marketing strength - but

not at all based on any outside engineering firm, evaluations, etc. as you

suggest above.

We're probably pretty close in agreement on this, Mike. The only outside engineering firm studies would not necessarily be to favor the consumer. The studies would be "does this tool exhibit inherent danger when not used as designed by some idiot", and "how sturdy is it? We need to be able to manage the amount of returns/store labor when this item is RTVed" and "can the consumer easily remove guards and safety devices?" are the questions asked.. Not how accurate does it saw, how much low end torque does it have to drill large holes, or how many hours will it sand without the pad coming off. Let's face it; 99% of tools sold are never used to their potential, never used daily by a professional that relies on them to make a living, and most fall apart from age before they wear out. So the trick becomes to design a tool (like our automobiles, computers, refrigerators, etc.) that is "just good enough".

I had a friend of mine here in town that designed and patented a nested wrench to be used by plumbers. He got his numbers together, had a bunch made, and did alright with them selling them by himself. He submitted it to Home Depot for evaluation. The liked it! No new or inherent dangers in the design, easy to use, clever, and handy! Next step, marketing. They decided they needed to cut the cost to have a broader appeal. So they specified a lower grade of tool steel and helped him get estimates based on an order of 2500 initial units. The cost was still too high, and their folks pulled out their actuarial tables for normal life of a tool like this, and decided one way to cut the cost was to drop the lifetime warranty to one year. Still too high; they liked the design, and thought it would sell if it was priced right. Soooooo... they helped him get bids from a Chinese manufacturer.

Now he has a tool that has almost no warranty, is made from a lesser grade tool steel, and is made in China. Almost there... if he gave up a larger stake in the company to an investment group, they would design a new splashy package for it, rename it, and interface with Home Depot for product promotion. During this time, he had to sign an agreement with Home Depot that said that he could see the end results of all the engineering, but not the data itself, and could not use the engineering, testing or anything else that they developed on their side of the project. So they owned all the intellectual property (which is fair) because he couldn't pay for all the product testing, market studies, and the manufacturing viability studies to make it a mass manufactured tool. He had no access to any of the information they developed since he didn't pay for it. But he still owned the wrench and his patent.

The end of the story was that they decided to hedge their marketing bets one more time and lower the retail cost of the product by changing the packaging and lower his part of the take. He was so depressed that he gave up. The whole process took a little over three years and cost him about $10,000 to keep submitting samples, flying here and there to make his presentation, and to get real engineered plans drawn up before they would take a hard look.

Here is where you are spot on. I spoke that that great guy that used to be the head tool guy of our region for HD and told him that story when they were introducing Hilti products into HD. He said he had heard it a million times. He was surprised the wrench got as far as it did. He said that HD works with engineering firms in China that try to design a product good for the US market while working with HD's general parameters. They submit a design to HD with all associated data, results, testing, cost to manufacture, etc., as a FINISHED PRODUCT. He said that if HD doesn't buy it, they will peddle it another vendor that wants to badge it and sell it. HD evaluates the finished product, then makes any tweaks they want before manufacture. They have nothing to do with design, performance, etc., other than to keep their long term marketing numbers in line.

And for the most part, unless you jump all the way up to a Festool

type brand, I am not so sure we get much difference in our tools

these days regardless of what we spend.



Unfortunately, I think that is true. It's just too bad that you have to

make such a leap up to the brands like Festool. Great tools without a

doubt, but they are playing the same game - market to the quality focused

consumre and rape them on the price under the notion that they are buying

quality. But - where else are you going to go to buy a higher level of

quality than the standard offering?

Nowhere I know of. I remember when I saved up and bought my first Milwaukee Hole Shooter in '75, and my Rockwell circular saw in '76. Bought them both at an industrial contractor's store, and they were great. The drill still works!

Now I buy a "good" cordless drill for $300 and I am pleased if they last 3 years or so. That's why I posted a while back that I was going to give they Ryobi Li drill/impact driver set they had on sale for $99. It has a three year warranty, but don't know how that will work yet. But using the metric of $100 a year like I have for the last 2 DeWalts I have owned, the drill only has to last ONE year to be its equal in utility value. And I still have the impact driver to boot. Then there is that 3 year warranty...

I don't know. I get no joy out of purchasing tools like I did a few decades ago, and now at today's prices and poor quality it is just downright depressing. I will pay to get what I want (I won't pay over $500 for a simple single task Festool drill) but don't want my pants around my ankles when I pay for it. Even the Domino is now listed at $925!! The only person I have ever met that uses their Domino to capacity and uses a Domino as a tool that pays its way is Leon. I have seen nice, used table saws go for less than that.

I have said this before; I make a living with my tools. I depend on my tools for their performance and reliability. But more and more I am looking hard at the price to value ratio when buying as I don't feel like I am getting what I paid for when I buy.

Robert