J T wrote:
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 9:59am From: lid (J.*Clarke) put
out some stuff I'll reply to one part at a time:
Because having spent a fair part of my life out of sight of land I have
a great respect for the ability of the sea, lake, river, stream, or pond
to damage anything that is floating on it.
That's a Hell of a blanket statement. Damage anything floating?
Sure, the Titanic sank on it's maiden voyage, but now the theory is a
fire in a cola bunker,
A "cola bunker"? Now why would they be transporting cola from the UK to the
US? Perhaps you meant "coal bunker"? If so, you've got that story badly
garbled--the conspiracy theory there is that the ship was traveling at
excessive speed in the hope of getting to New York before the coal fire
spread and the fact is that the fire was out before the iceberg was struck.
Regardless, the Titanic is far from the only vessel that has ever sunk, and
a canoe is far less capable than the Titanic.
Unlss your'r out
in the middle of the ocean, most people with any sense head for shore if
a storm comes up and they're in a boat.
A storm is far from the only way to come to grief in a boat.
It is a truism that the sea can kill any ship and the wise sailor gives
it as little help in that endeavor as he can.
That's why you go ashore, if you can.
If you are going to spend all your time ashore then why have a boat at all?
Ever chip through the rust on a warship, built from the finest steel in
the world, and covered with high-quality marine enamel from the time
that it was first built
That, only one of the many reasons I didn't join the Navy.
Perhaps if you had you would know something about boats.
(the Navy will spend for good paint because they don't like to have
their ships turn to rust)
From the lowest bideder.
From the lowest bidder that meets spec.
90 feet above the waterline where a landlubber would assume that it
never gets exposed to salt water,
Crossed the posd twice, in troopships, seen spray go completely
over the entire ship.
And yet you stick with your notion that the gunwale on a canoe will never
get wet?
and find after chipping through an inch and a half of rust that there
wasn't anything there but rust?
Then apparently neither the paint, or the steel, were that high
quality.
Seems you know as much about steel as you do about boats. You can have very
strong steel or very corrosion resistant steel but you can't have both. As
for the paint, fine, let's accept your argument that the Navy doesn't know
what kind of paint to use on ships. What makes you think the varnish on
this canoe is going to be any better?
First time you do that you lose all faith in the notion that distance
above the waterline and protective coatings guarantee that the material
will never be wet.
I never had that faith in the first place. A 2 1/2 ton truck full
of troops gets a flat, you're already on land. A ship gets a hole, you
might be miles from land. Hehehe
If you do not have such faith then why when anyone suggests that your
precious titebond will get wet do you go on about coatings?
It's when things get abnormal that people die. In any case, the
particular part that he was replacing was rotted out. That means that it
was kept wet for a fair amount of time.
No, it doesn't. It means it was exposed to the right conditions to
make it rot.
And being kept dry as an Egyptian tomb is of course one of those conditions?
Resorcinol glue _is_ "wood glue". It's just truly waterproof wood glue.
However, it is not used in day-to-day use, for woodworking. It is
normally used in boatbuilding.
I see. So the only kind of glue that is "wood glue" is the kind of glue
that is not used in boatbuilding.
Now, if it is used in boatbuilding but not in day to day use, perhaps there
is a reason? Hmmmm?
Now you see, there I have the advantage of you because I have learned in
the real world that (a) paint, varnish, etc, canot be counted on to keep
the underlying surface dry when it is covered by standing water and (b)
even the very expensive multipart coatings have a limited service life
in a marine environment. If the "varnish or other protective coating"
will keep moisture away from the glue" then why did the wood rot out in
the first place? Or will it just magically keep moisture away from the
glue and not from the surrounding wood?
And, you think no one else has learned any of that?
You clearly haven't. You may think you have and yet you keep insisting that
paint will keep glue dry on a boat.
That's one
reason for the words revarnish, repaint, etc. But, I doubt there's
gonna be a whole lot of standing water on a canoe gunnel.
Perhaps not. But that's not the wya to bet.
By the way,
epoxy is not 100% waterproof, as apparently stell isn't either.
Never claimed it was so what relevance do you believe that statement to
have?
Epoxy
will eventually let water thru. Rescorcinal I don't know about. And,
don't care.
So you don't care about anything except your precious Titebond?
I don't know anyone who was stupid enough to use PVA glue in a stressed
joint on a boat.
Ah, here's where you confused me. You see, you repied to Toller,
who asked about using Titebond.
"Thu, Jul 15, 2004, 11:48pm From: lid (J.*Clarke)
toller wrote:
snip 2) Is Titebond2 adequate, or should I use epoxy?
To which you replied:
On a canoe, I'd use resorcinol myself, but epoxy should be fine. I
wouldn't trust _any_ PVA glue on a stressed part of any boat. Having
your glue let go at sea can ruin your whole day snip
"
That's where I got PVA. Well, Titebond II is a aliphatic resin
glue, not a PVA glue. I would say Titebond II, clamped for 24 hours,
should work.
You might want to research the composition of "aliphatic resin glue". You
will find that it is PVA with additives.
And you believe that with sufficient confidence that you would stake your
kid's life on it?
However I do remember a laminated tiller, nicely carved by a local
artisan and glued together with what he assured us was "waterproof
glue", lying on the sole of the cockpit completely delaminated. And that
tiller was under no stress to speak of and was subject to less water
exposure than a canoe gunwale when it came apart.
Well, that statement sure leaves a lnot of information missing.
Type of wood, type of glue, clamped, clamp time, protective coating,
etc.
About as much information as you don't have about this glue joint on the
canoe.
I saw a delaminated plywood sign, no paint or protective coating.
Took about 5 years outside to deliaminate.
I think you will find that exterior plywood is generally made with glue
considerably more water resistant than Titebond II.
Look, if you want to stick your neck out that's fine, but when you start
advising other people to do dangerous things while pretending they are
not dangerous you're
behaving irresponsibly.
Well, I wasn't aware that a repair to a canoe gunnel, using
Titebond II would be a life-threatening experience.
Perhaps you should improve your awareness.
Grok the concept--bad advice about how to use a table saw may cost
somebody a finger. Bad advice about how to fix a boat can cost several
people their lives.
I don't recall telling anyone how to use a table saw. i also don't
recall telling anyone how to fix a boat. I do think Titebond II would
suffice in the repair of the canoe gunnel.
I see. So you are advising someone to repair a canoe gunwale (it is not a
"gunnel", it is a "gunwale", by the way) using Titebong II glue but you are
not telling someone who to fix a boat. Is it that you do not consider
replacing part of a rotted out gunwale to be "fixing" or that you do not
consider a canoe to be a "boat"?
If you're _not_ a "boatbuilding expert" then perhaps you should not be
quite so quick to criticize the opinions of others who have relevant
experience.
No, I'm not an expert, few people are, at anything. I also wasn't
aware that you are. You might have said.
Why?
Hmm, just reread your statement. Relevant experience. An
nteresting statement. Being in the Navy is relevant? If that's so, it's
an interesting fact, that if you count all floating craft, of all sizes,
Disney is suppoed to have the fifth largest navy in the world.
Regardless, people in canoes, or small boats should be wearing
approve floatation devises.
I see. So it's all right to make a crappy repair and have the boat sink
because everybody should be wearing a life jacket. Now I know why some
states have started requiring licenses for boat operators.
I doubt that the Titebond folks are paying you to advocate the use of
their product in boatbuilding, so why are you so upset about the notion
that it is not suited to that purpose?
They aren't, I just like Titebond II.
I like it too, but I would not use it to fix a boat, or to repair a gunwale
on a canoe since you don't seem to consider that "fixing a boat".
Found it meets my needs
nicely. And, I'm not advocating it's use in boatbuilding.
Yes, you are.
I think it would work for the repair in question.
It might. Or it might not. I'd rather go with something I was _sure_ would
work.
You apparently seem to have a major problem with that concept.
The problem I have is with your view that "might work" is an adequate
standard for equipment whose failure could put lives in danger.
Sure, resorcinal, and epoxy will work, they'd both be overkill too.
Better to overkill than to underkill.
I know of a number of people who build
boats and/or canoes for money that wouldn't glue at all, just screws for
holding - with varnish coat, of course, for protection.
Perhaps the fact that they don't trust _any_ glue in that application should
tell you something.
My personal favorites for boatbuilding are strip built, and tack
and tape (using epoxy and fibreglass).
That's nice until you have to fix one.
I recently read of a 50' steam boat, originally built in the 1890s.
The hull was four layers of mahogany, copper wire sewn. It was recently
"restored". The restorer apparently couldn't make it waterproof again,
so used epoxy between the layers. Just found that interesting, so
tossed it out there.
A correct statement would be that I would use Titebond II IN
boatbuilding. But, not FOR boatbuilding. In plainer language, I would
use it in some places, but NOT in critical areas.
And how would you decide what constitutes "critical areas"? Before you
decide, you might want to read Sir Francis Chichester's account of the time
that the knife rack let go while he was directly under it. And being
chased around a DASH hangar by a Coke machine will give you a wonderful
appreciation for the importance of seemingly minor structure such as the
bracket that is supposed to hold the Coke machine in place.
JOAT
We've got a lot of experience of not having any experience.
- Nanny Ogg
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)