On Friday, December 20, 2013 1:44:01 PM UTC-5, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote:
null wrote:
As I have already explained, "listed" devices will be "approved" by the
AHJ under 110.2.
110.3 (inspection) is irrelevant to listed devices -inspectors do not
"inspect" listed devices. They determine that the listed devices are
used according to the manufactures instructions and the conditions of
listing.
The system is working as intended by the NEC and UL.
Anyone can submit a code change proposal.
And anyone can petition the UL to change their standards.
I am sure your proposals will be appropriately considered.
What your failing to recognize is they are approving installations that do
no protect "listed" equipment (tenant owned, property owned, etc.).
What's the purpose of NEC if it isn't to protect the public? What's the
purpose of the listing effort (Testing for Public Safety) if the
application of listed equipment in facilities allegedly complying to NEC
do not protect the public after all?
It's quite obvious that the NEC doesn't agree with your fire and
shock hazard argument. If this were a real problem of any significance,
then the NEC would simply not allow 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp
circuit. Everyone knows that 95% of people are going to plug any
appliance with a matching plug into a 15 amp receptacle. Very few
are going to go find the panel and figure out whether it has a 15
or 20 amp breaker. And they wouldn't look because not one appliance
manual I've ever bought has said that it had to be used only on a
15 amp circuit. So, why wouldn't the average person just plug it
in? And the NEC, UL, electrical inspectors all know this is going
on in hundreds of millions of homes. Obviously they don't agree that it's a
code violation, illegal, dangerous or why wouldn't they do something
about it?
So, if this were indeed a real problem, the
NEC would simply ban putting 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit.
The fact that they allow it, the fact that electrical inspectors pass these installs every day, says you'be full of baloney.
Why don't you show us some appliance manuals that say the appliance
can only be used on a circuit with a 15 amp rating? Or some fire,
shocks attributed specifically to this. With millions of appliances
and millions of 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits that should be
easy to do......
If you have an appreciation for "real" power, you could acknowledge
I-squared x resistance .... that's what a power cord would see. Protected
by a 20-ampere circuit breaker could allow for up to 78% more exposure to
power than what the power cord is rated for if it has a NEMA 5-15 plug
and/or cord set. A 20-ampere circuit breaker does not limit the exposure
of the 15-ampere rated device to 15-amperes! A 15-ampere circuit breaker
does.
You can overload an extension cord utilizing a NEMA 5-15 plug if protected
by a circuit breaker rated at 20-amperes. However, you cannot overload
such extension cord if protected by a 15-ampere circuit breaker.
Acknowledge?
Here's an 18 gauge extension cord. It's rated at 10 amps. You
could overload that on a 15 amp circuit.
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?seq...FSEV7AodH2cAvA
Here's another one sold at HD, rated at 13 amps. You could overload
that on a 15 amp circuit.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-9-ft-2...i_src=17588969
Acknowledge?
I find it amazing this concept is so difficult to understand by the
masses. I encourage you to contact any listing agency regarding my
claims. I cannot imagine how anyone can misinterpret NEC in such a way
that justifies listed devices not being protected. The words are quite
clear in NEC Articles 100, 200, 300, and 400. I've responded to many post
on this forum ... and have yet to be presented an argument that justifies
not protecting Listed equipment. In fact, one response stated "All bets
are off" once the installation has been approved by the regulatory agency
.. and "We can't control what the user will interface with the
receptacles" ... which is just not true if NEC is followed as written
(REF: Article 110.3(A)(8) which states: "Other factors that contribute to
the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact
with the equipment". The key words are "contribute", "practical",
"safeguarding" .... ACKNOWLEDGED? It just isn't happening if 20-ampere
circuit breakers used in branch circuits are interfaced with "Listed
equipment" rated for use from branch circuit rated at not more than
15-amperes.
I've said enough in the forum to realize the concepts in the NEC are way
above your head, and you just don't have what it takes to understand how
it's suppose to work.
Yes, after all you only have EE's and electricians telling your you're
wrong. We haven't heard from gfre who is/was an electrical inspector,
but I bet he won't agree with you.
And again, if this is indeed a serious safety issue, why the hell does
the NEC allow putting 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp circuits at all?
Everyone knows that people plug all kinds of things into them and almost
no one is going to go look at the breaker. Not that they would even
know to look, because
I'm still waiting for some appliance manuals that say that the appliance
may only be plugged into and used on a 15 amp circuit.
Your logic is extensively flawed, and you've not
presented anything resembling a logical argument except for what's
referred to as "Appeal to Authority". If you are an authority, then
present a logical argument.
Many have, it's just that you ignore it all.