On 03/11/2013 22:06, Java Jive wrote:
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 20:57:50 +0000, Roger Chapman
wrote:
Take another look at the net contributions pages.
You are forgetting that Harry was implying that the people who take
most out of the EU are "basket case ex commie countries", whereas if
you look at the very page you suggest, with the exception of Poland
the ex-communist countries take out much less than 'western' european
countries, such as Portugal, Spain, and Greece.
Not so. Harry was directing his ire at the east Europeans but nowhere
has he excused the others in the negative tail.
They are all in the
negative tail. It is there in black and white and nothing you can say
will alter the facts how ever hard you try.
I have merely shown that Harry was, as usual, arguing from a position
of uninformed bigotry rather than informed opinion. Nothing that has
been said since by either of you has altered that.
But for once there was an element of fact in his argument which you have
consistently ignored.
There is no support for your position. The net contributions page must
take into account the rebate otherwise the contributions wouldn't be net.
Try adding up the various components and see if you can make sense of
them. In 2007, from the graphs approximately or as actually stated in
the text, the UK:
Paid*: 13.5bn
Rec'd: 7.5bn
Rebate: 5.2bn
Therefore the net contribution should either be ...
13.5 - 7.5 - 5.2 = 0.8bn (with rebate)
... or ...
13.5 - 7.5 = 6bn (without rebate)
... whereas according to the Net Contributions it was actually 3.5bn.
If the figures do not add up then the figures must be wrong. In this
case you have been led astray by an ambiguous part of the BBC report.
According to Wikipedia the rebate isn't two thirds of the UK's
contribution (which is so huge as to be unbelievable) but:
"The rebate is calculated as approximately two-thirds of the amount by
which UK payments into the EU exceed EU expenditure returning to the UK.
Currently the rebate is worth £5 billion (GBP) a year and the UK remains
one of the largest net contributors."
The page itself is out of date but the principle will not have changed.
* Although the legend on this graph states "including UK rebate", it
is not clear whether this means other countries' payments towards the
UK rebate and/or the UK receipt of said rebate.
"There are some variations however. Thanks to its rebate, the UK pays a
smaller proportion of its GNI than other countries."
Exactly, so Harry's original claim was even more wrong than I
originally proved.
As below, this point stands.
As of now you are still trying to defend an absolutely indefensible
position.
The UK pays less than it otherwise would but it is still a major
contributor and gets much less back than it pays in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036802.stm
"Even taking into account the rebate, the UK is one of the largest net
contributors to the EU budget. Had it not been for the rebate, its net
contribution would have been even bigger than Germany's in 2007."
It gets less back than it pays in, but not 'much less', particularly
when population is taken into account. On the net contributions by
population page, the only contributing countries who contribute
significantly less than us per head are France and Italy, who pay half
the UK rebate between them, and Finland. And as you yourself have
pointed out, the UK's contributions in terms of its GNI are the
smallest in the entire EU.
As I pointed out the position of the UK in the net contribution stakes
is fair in respect of GDP per capita except for the privileged position
of Austria, Finland and Ireland who are favoured by the system.
Harry's claims were bigotry, nothing more, nothing less.
Bigotry but informed bigotry in this instance.
You have proved nothing other than you are as good as TFP in arguing
that black is really white when it suits your purpose and ignoring
anything that doesn't. You even have another of his traits - ignoring
and editing out particular points you don't have an answer to. Recognise
this bit you silently snipped?
Bah! Humbug!
Yes you are a humbug but why advertise?
"How about a little bit of that logic you are so keen on. It is
nonsensical to draw up a table for net contributions if the rebate is
not included."
I still await it from you.
You have had it. Since you are absolutely committed to arguing that
black is white and I have more than enough diy to do before I go into
hospital for another hernia operation shortly I will not be responding
further unless you crank up the insults and behave even more like TFP in
which case expect a return in kind. You two really do deserve each other.
--
Roger Chapman