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Bill Graham

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On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:02:08 -0700, "Bill Graham"
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On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 19:12:23 -0700, "Bill Graham"
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On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:07:51 -0700, "Bill Graham"
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On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:23:49 -0700, "Bill Graham"
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On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:27:51 -0700, "Bill Graham"
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On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:49:35 -0700, "Bill Graham"
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On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:58:08 -0400,
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On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 07:42:13 -0400, Meanie
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On 4/6/2013 12:51 AM, Bill Graham wrote:

My point is simple. Unless you can prove that you were
layed off for reasons unrelated to your job performance
and or money restrictions, you can probably do nothing
about it.

Laid off or fired is irrelevant. If enough time elapse
with the job, the ex-employee can collect unemployment
compensation.
Not if you are fired "with cause" in Canada - at least in
Ontario.

Doesn't it depend on the cause? If the job changes and
you're now not qualified, it is a firing with cause
(incompetency) but it's not something you can do anything
about.

True. And this happens to many people in this computer
age. I was a high energy physics machind operator. They
obsoleted my machind and transferred me to a new, much
larger and more complicated machind when I was older and
less able to memorize large quantities of information.
They didnlt lay me off, but they instituted a, "geezer
elimination program" (my descriotion) where they paid you
two weeks salery for every year you had been with them (up
to a maximum of a years pay.) Since I had been with them
for 28 years, I g9ot a years pay to leave, so I retired at
the age of 61, but didn't start collecting any social
security until the following year, at
62.

When I (was) retired (laid off, RIF'd, whatever - could have
interviewed for a number of other positions but it was time
to go) from IBM they paid me for 6 months, plus all
vacation, and gave me a year's medical insurance, too (my
retirement insurance picked up from there until I got a job
with insurance). I started collecting my retirement
immediately but will try to go another five years, until
full SS age. Maybe longer, maybe not.

Layoffs are certainly different from firings, though.
Layoffs are common even states that are not "at will".

Yes. I worked for IBM as a, "customer engineer" when I first
left the US Navy in 1960. It was an interesting job, but a
bit too structured for my blood. Big corporations can afford
to give these perks, but small business seldom can, and
that's why I think making laws to force them can be highly
damaging to the society. Let those who can give those perks,
but let smaller outfits find a way to eek out a living
without government interference. One can always choose where
one wants to work. I worked for both big and small outfits
in my working life, and there were both advantages and
disadvantages to both.

Huh? The issue is firing people. What does that have to do
with perks (other than do they get paid the perks they've
earned)

How people are let go, whether at the whim of one3 person, or
by a board that investigates and discusses the propos3d
lay-off at length, together with hearings that both the
prospective layed off employee and his manager can voice their
objections, is just another "perk" that large corporations can
afford, and small businesses cannot.

You're not making any sense. Why should any employer be forced
to have a "board", or "hearings" or any other such nonsense?
If your boss doesn't think you're doing the work, gone. If
you don't like the boss, you can fire him without so much as
notice.

Sure, but what you can do, and what most large corporations do do
are two different things. Especially if they have to spend a lot
of time and money training you to do whatever it is you do for
them. They are not likely to just let some bozo fire people that
they have invested lots of money in for any or no reason at
all....
There is no "firing board" required in Ontario Canada. The
immediate supervisor thinks you are slacking? He writes you up. He
thinks you are incompetent? he writes you up.
You've been written up twice - you are on notice. He writes you up
one more time - you can be GONE - wih cause - no severance - no
pogey.

Works well for the employer - and is "fair" to the employee.
Gross negligence or insubordination can also be used as "for
cause" but is more difficult to prove. There are other "for cause"
situations - criminal acts on the job, among others.

Fine. But I wasn't speaking of what is, "requireed by law". Some
companies set up firing boards to protect their heavy investments
in training employe3es and then having them fired by straw bosses
for no good reason. these are not required by law, but a wise move
by employers to protect their investments in skilled employees.
And sometimes it gets the "straw bosses" fired too - which can be a
GOOD thing.

Yes. Especially if it happens too often.
but, I have to say, that bossing is a much different skill than
doing the work, expecially in a highly technical job. I was a
skilled worker, and I had several different bosses. Some of them
were pretty bad. But they had a difficult job, (one that I wouldn;t
want to do) so I gave them a lot of slack, and managed to put up
with some of their failings. After all, this too is part of doing a
difficult job. Even now that I am retired, I run into some band
directors in persuing my hobby that I think could use a lot of
improvement. But if I was asked to do their job, I would turn it
down, so I put up with their failings too....:^)
I've been on both sides.And in the middle. In the middle is the most
difficult!!!

Yes. That's where you get all the blame for things that happen over which
you had little or no control. Its the exact opposite of being a building
inspector, who has a lot of power, until something goes wrong, and then he
takes no blame for the result. - But they can be sued. We had a new bus
terminal develop cracks and be condemned here in Salem. The building
inspectors passed it off before the damage was observed, and now they are
being sued. - I love it.....:^)