On Tue, 06 Mar 2012 21:14:41 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Sure, but its likely to have been designed to handle motorised valves.

Shouldn't any stat handle one?

Not if it hasnt got magnetised contacts to provide a snap action.

Presumably then it shouldn't have a rating for inductive load? I'm sure it did.

Presumably another one from china. All bets are off with the 'ratiings' with those.

I once bought a laptop power supply from there, and the mains lead conductors were hair-thin, much like the very fine wire in the leads of Seinheiser (sp?) headphones. Also, within a few weeks, I managed to snap one of the prongs of the plug, simply by pulling the plug out of the socket at a slight angle (not violently either).

Bet you'll find if you actually compare the inductive
load with the rating that both exceed it by quite a bit.

The inductive rating I remember as being a couple of amps. It was not a 480 watt fan. It was 30 watts.

You cant just use the amps with inductive loads.

Then why do they state them?

They are chinese.

I've seen some very good stiff from China, it's not all cheap ****e.

it's measuring the combination of the room temperature and the output of the resistor.

Nope, not when the it turns on and the heater is off.

It doesnt do that when turning off either, when its turning
off, it isnt even using the air temp at all, the heater just
turns it off well before it would otherwise turn off to
significantly reduce the hysteresis.

THEN it measures the air temp again, with the resistor off.

Exactly.

Fraid not.

It's turning off when it shouldn't,

Nope, its turning off when it should to reduce the hysteresis.

therefore the heater is not on as long as it needs to be to keep the room warm.

Wrong, it just comes on again sooner and keeps the room more
evenly warm than otherwise, because of the reduced hysteresis.

STILL no guessing of the temperature.

The resistor has to cool before it will allow the heater to come back on.

I do.

You said you don't mind it being really warm though.

Thats a different effect to when its say 20C

So presumably varying from your minimum comfortable temperature to 4C higher wouldn't bother you?

It does bother me when its 4C colder than I prefer.

Why not set your room temperature so that you aren't near the minimum of your comfort zone?

There is no such thing. The temp I require varys with
what I am wearing and what I am doing etc etc etc.

Oh my god..... your life must be really complicated. Can you program your stat to change temp depending on what clothing you're wearing? You could fit radio tags in everything....

As I said most people have a zone of comfort, not one precise temperature.

If that was true, they wouldnt have been able to sell any of the bi metallic
strip thermostats for a higher price than the ones without heaters.

I reckon it's because people will pay more for something that says it's accurate. "Oh that must be good, look it's got a 0.5C accuracy!"

Like people buy a car that can go 150mph when they never go over the speed limit.

I would if I am wearing just a T shirt in the heated house.

Even if it's only for a minute?

Yep, because its a lot more than a minute in total
for the whole trip when going out shopping etc.

But most of the time you are in a heated car or a heated shop.

And I prefer not to feel too cold when moving
between the car in the carpark and the shop etc.

For a minute!!! ONE MINUTE!!!!

And I always take a top when flying, because they run the planes
too cold for my likely when wearing just a T shirt and shorts and
thongs/flip flops as I always do in spring/summer/autumn.

EGAD!

Corse when we are having one of those 10 days over
40C the plane can get ****ING hot on the ground when
they turn it off for refueling with the passenger still on
board at the intermediate stops with the Saab 340Bs.

How much hand luggage do you take on board? I can just imagine you changing clothes 5 times during the flight.

Surely the specific heat capacity of your body causes you to take a while to cool down.

Your core temp doesn't change. You feel the cold when
your skin temp drops significantly unless you are like that
mate of mine that wears shorts right thru the entire winter.

Your skin temp is irrelevant.

Not to my comfort it aint.

Even if you are stupid enough to lie down naked in
a snow drift,

Why is it stupid?

your core body temp wont be affected
but even you might feel a tad uncomfortable.

You'll be telling me you wash your hands in warm water next.

Another one doesnt go quite that far, but doesnt wear
much on top. He's pretty fat tho and I keep reminding him
that its his fat that keeps him warm, its a built in jacket.

I find fat people usually feel the cold more,

None of the ones I know do and one of them is by far the fattest person
I have ever seen in person,

It would depend on WHY they are fat I suppose.

even tho I have seen fatter ones in docos.

Gotta love the way Aussies put "O" on the end of stuff!

We all call him Huge for a reason.

Aren't you meant to say the opposite? "Lofty" is normally the nickname of a short person for example.

as they are fat due to a low metabolism.

Nope because they shovel more calories into their mouths than they burn.

He eats VASTLY more than any of the rest of us do.

He's one of the motorhomers and while everyone else
talks about particular towns about particular things unique
to that town, with him, thats where there is a pastry shop
with a particularly good line in cream cakes etc.

When he shows up to visit anyone, he usually brings a great
swag of that sort of thing. The others eat one or two each
and he wolfes down the vast bulk of what he brought.

Never seen anything like it.

Is he American or something?

Even he does wear a top when we are standing
around in the dark with a heavy frost at -10C for
an hour so outside with a decent wind.

The one who wears shorts right thru the winter doesnt show up that early.

I used to ride to school on a bike when I was a kid and in the depths
of winter, my ears felt like they might freeze off after the long downhill run. I wasnt stupid enough to do that
wearing just a T shirt and shorts.

That'll be why you're not used to it then. Kids these days are wrapped in cotton wool,

Try telling that that to my GP. His kid was showing
off to his mates riding his bike along the top of a
waist high wall at the school, fell off and broke is arm.

He should have done this: http://youtu.be/PBFHxBFQssk

I did once walk along the balcony wall in the theatre at my school. The headmaster went NUTS!

so when they get to adulthood, they're wimps.

Must be why they get killed surfing on car roofs etc.

Australia sounds more fun than here.

I actually take pff my fleece that I wear over a sweat over the T
shirt in winter when I go out in all but the most extreme weather.
I leave the fleece on in the most extreme weather and when doing
the garage/yard sale run in the depths of winter because the
regulars often stand around talking waiting for somewhere to open
and that can be damned cold, particularly with a heavy frost.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...4/facepalm.jpg

Stop crying boy, you some sort of bald sook ?

That was not a cry, that was a "facepalm".

SURE it was. Pity about the sobbing that blows that claim completely out of the water.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=facepalm

Most choose to do what is most comfortable, including me.

The trouble is people are becoming worse.

The damned ancient greeks used to sit around in
their togas or whatever they wore and howl like that.

What?

You deaf ?

What are Greeks wearing togas to do with anything?

In a few more generations, we'll be wanting thermostats with a 0.1C accuracy, and we simply won't be able to go
outside at all.

We used to drive around in unheated cars in the
depth of winter and now arent that stupid anymore.

That change didnt actually produce the end
of civilisation as we know it for some reason.

It was unnecessary (apart from increasing driving visibility).

So are cars.

They perform a useful function, without them we would not be able to get form here to 200 miles away whenever we want/need to.

We are getting more and more expensive ways of being comfortable, and more and more things we won't have but are used
to when they fail.

You're always free to go back to a cave if you want.

There is a sensible middle ground.

Ever stopped to think how much money we spend on this comfort, and how much less work we'd have to do without it? Time off is the ultimate comfort.

Corse they fail too.

Less often.

Locally, no one did anything much special during the inevitable
10 days over 40C that happens many years. Now almost
everyone has at least an evaporative cooler, what the yanks
call a swamp cooler, and many have full airconditioning.

I can remember one car trip in conditions like that in a car
with no airconditioning at all. It was so ****ing hot that we
pulled up at a river and just jumped in the water and stayed
there in the shade in the water until the sun started to go down.

In those temps, wearing more clothes can be useful,

Nope. I built the house from scratch myself wearing just shorts, not even a T shirt.

with regular soakings of water. Lots of evaporation.

Doesnt work too well inside a car.

Open the windows when you drive along, much draught to allow the evaporation.

Yes, whipping yourself furiously when naked can help
a bit in winter, but I prefer to wear more clothes myself.

There are other more interesting things to do when naked.

When I go out for exercise, I try to anticipate what I will be
wearing at the end of the very long walk, because it irritates me
to have to have removed the sweat because the movement has warmed me up and the air has warmed up. I normally start
at first light, when its just light enough so I dont trip over stuff. I dont walk
around the streets, too boring, I normally walk in the bush/scrub
areas on the hills at the back of town for 1:30-2 hours.

I don't have to do that anticipation :-P

And arent as comfortable as me.

I don't notice the temperature.

You would with one of our 10 days over 40C

Nonsense. I adapt.

Its more than most's preferred comfort range which is
why heaters in bi metallic thermostats were invented.

The wouldnt bother with an extra cost item like that if
most dont prefer the reduced hysteresis that produces.

I doubt a resistor costs that much.

Still cost more than not having it.

It's probably more that un-knowledgable people will think they're
faulty if they have a 4C hysteresis and be liable to send them back.

Nope. Most prefer a lower hysteresis when it can be achieved that cheaply.

But I disagree on WHY they want it.

Irrelevant, they want it anyway.

That's my point. The resistor isn't there for the purpose you explained, it's there to make the customer feel good. They're just as likely to buy a chrome plated one without a resistor.

That wont fly either with the hot weather.

We routinely have 10 days over 40C,

If you lot got that much you'd be dying like flys.

I went to the South of France when they had that heatwave that killed hundreds of people. It didn't bother me. I
became
accustomed to it within a couple of days.

You'd be dead if you tried digging ditches in ours.

I'd get used to it.

Not even possible. People die if they are that stupid.

Only if they are wimpy like yourself.

As long as I was permitted to take my shirt off that is. And some drinks!

You'd still end up dead.

********.

One of the garage/yard salers wears shorts the entire year.

We routinely get heavy frosts at -10C and we are out at that time, in the dark.

No one else is that silly.

There are a few sensible people around. Wait till there's an ice age, then only people like him and me will
survive.

I'll be basking in the sun in my passive solar house pointing
at your frozen corpse in the snow drift and laughing.

Your house has been carted off by a glacier.

Not even possible here, too flat.

Something terrible would happen to it. Crushed by snow then.

That's what I hate about the UK, cloud. Rain is fine, sun is fine, but cloudy all the time is boring.

Yeah, even a very heavy frost is quite pleasant when its
sunny, particularly when I'm basking in it in my passive
solar house looking out over the oval of the school thats
quite close with the entire area bright white from the frost.

And observing kids falling over and cracking their skulls open :-)

Nar, their skulls are too thick for that |-)

[ROFL]

We don't get snow here.

Never missed skiing?

We do have much more skiable areas than you do, just not where I personally live.

Mountains covered in snow? In Australia?

No idea. I just noticed that when I was trying to find an decent summary of why bi metallic thermostats normally
have a heater, on the web.

My Golf (1998 model) does seem to keep PRECISELY at 90C on the guage. Older vehicles never used to do that. Maybe
it makes the engine more efficient, or produce less pollution,

Yeah, likely, I meant to say that and forgot to say it.

How do you find the Golf ? My previous was a 72, lasted 35+ years
until I was stupid enought to not bother to fix the windscreen leak that I kinew produced a wet floor when it rained
much until that eventually rusted a hole in the floor and was no longer registerable and not
economic to repair.

I have a hole in the floor too. I think it's from a leak in the sunroof.

It also has both locks busted, the radio-locking is broken, the passenger window doesn't work, the bonnet catch is
busted, and the rear washer is broken.

Sounds like the yanks are right, they've gone down hill a lot since mine.

It's no worse than any other car, I've come to the conclusion they are all pretty much the same now.

Like any other car there are little bits that go wrong that I don't bother fixing as they aren't really necessary.

That wasnt the case with mine over a much longer period than yours.

I don't tend to service or look after my cars.

And it hasnt happened with the Hyundai Getz I replaced it with either.

Not one warranty quibble in the 5 year warranty. Even the Golf didnt manage that.

Or the beetle that I had before the Golf either.

I only replaced that with the Golf because I had a ****ing
great Alsatian that was absolutely obsessed with having
his head out the window, even in the depths of winter
and on long trips lasting days at highway speeds.

Define highway speed :-)

The beetle only has one opening window on each side and in
summer the bugger used to slobber down the back of my neck.

That's one reason I never got a dog. That and having to walk it. And the ****.

The Golf fixed that, he got his own window and its got a heater
that allows him to have his way even in the depths of winter.

The heater is powerful enough to keep you at 30C while the window is open?

You'd reduce your heating costs quite a bit if you did.

I don't believe it would be that much. After all when I come back it has to warm the house back up.

Thats another very common misapprehension. Its just
basic physics that you lose significantly less at the house
lower temps, because loss is entirely determined by the
temperature differential all other factors kept constant.

I know. But if it's 0C outside, and the house cools from 20C to 17C, then it still has a similar difference.

You still save by turning it off when you arent there.

Not by much at all. 20C minus 0C is pretty much equal to 17C minus 0C.

And only a super insulated house will only drop
3C with it 0C outside if you are out all day.

It is well insulated. Double brick with foam insulation, double galzing, and fibreglass in the attic with wooden flooring on top, and boxes full of stuff on top of that.

If you do have a super insulated house, you dont need a boiler.

It cools until it eventually approaches the outdoor temperature of 0C, at which point the pipes freeze and stuff goes damp and mouldy.

If it's 10C outside, then the house wouldn't have cooled by much in that time period.

There is no need for any instantly, modern digital thermostats
anticipate the setpoint, now how long it takes to move between
the setpoints and just stop heating at the appropriate time at bed
time and start heating before the daytime setpoint in the morning
so when you get up, its at the temp you say you want.

That would be fine if you got up at an exact time every day.

Doesnt have to be exactly. If you set it for the earliest
time you normally get up, you still save significantly.

Although it would still be a problem - either the house is cooling
down before your bedtime,

Nope, it just stops heating then.

or you are going to bed with the house too warm.

Not if you have enough of a clue to have a different zone temp
for the bedroom from wherever you are before you go to bed.

Taint rocket science.

I don't wish to isolate parts of my house. It's a small house, and I tend to leave internal doors open for
convenience.

Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it to open the bedroom door once a day.

More than once a day. There's more than just a bed in there.

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