On Mar 5, 12:14*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:51:25 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:





Sam Takoy wrote:
Hi,

Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.

We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
this project to an end.

However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
base its decision on?

I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?

Some of the things you mention could be subjective; the reveals, e.g.
Others might be nit-picky...how much out of square?...tearout where?...what
sort of finish damage? *Regardless - from what you've said - I wouldn't be
kissing off 25K!

If it were me, I would first make a detailed list of the things I find
wrong. *I would then contact the maker and politely and calmly express my
dissatisfaction, explaining what I found wrong and asking him what he would
propose.

If what he proposed was unsatisfactory I would photograph them; I would then
photograph similar areas on work I found OK in order to contrast the two..
And I'm talking decent photos, not fuzzy, under/over exposed ones. *If out
of square, *SHOW* (in the photo) that it is and how much. *If you have to
hire a photographer it can be money well spent but do NOT hire a portrait
photographer; preferably, hire one who has experience in forensics; if that
isn't possible, then a commercial photographer and explain exactly what you
want the photos to show and why you are having them made.

Finally, I would do what Swingman suggested...get written, detailed quotes
from others to fix what is wrong. *By "detailed" I mean things like, "Repair
damaged finish on left front door front..."...detailed. *As detailed as
possible. *You need those in order to show the extent of your damages but
they could also help *prove* the damages along with the photos (and the
cabinets themselves but photos are easier to take to court . *It would
also be useful if you could show that specs in the original contract were
not followed.

Depending upon the cost to make you whole, I would then talk to a lawyer IF
the amount is greater than the max in your small claim court. *Have no
doubt, a lawyer will be costing money; if you can use small claims and if
you feel competent to prove damages than personally I would go that route.

Someone mentioned the possibility that even if you sued you might not be
able to collect...the "blood out of a turnip" thing. *That's true but
whoever built them probably has a truck and/or car; liens can be placed on
them after obtaining a judgment. *Ditto his house (if not a renter),
equipment, etc. *Bank accounts can be attached. *IOW, you may not get the
judgment paid immediately but eventually it will be.

There is also something known as "examination of a judgment debtor" whereby
he can be called into court, sworn and questioned by you (or lawyer) to
determine exactly what he has and where it is; refusal to answer or lies can
bring jail time.

I hope things work out for you. *I know you are disappointed - especially
after being involved with the kitchen for three years - and I feel for you.
I hope he isn't a corporation.

One question that has not been asked and needs to be answered.
*Did your cabinet maker also INSTALL the cabinets? Or did you install
them as part of your three year kitchen renovation.

*If you installed them or a general laborer installed them rather than
the cabinetmaker I'm afraid you will not have a leg to stand on. *If
the cabinetmaker supplied the installation crew you have recourse.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
defective regardless of who installed them. Yes, some
of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
installation, but handles at the wrong height, incorrect
hinge mortising, etc is going to be hard to pin on
the installer. And he does not have to prove any of
that beyond a reasonable doubt, he just needs to prove
it more likely than not it's the fault of the cabinet maker.
It would also help if he has pictures of
the cabinets before they were installed, showing the
defects. If they were defective, I sure would have
taken a picture of them immediately and if they
were bad enough I would have refused delivery.

One thing that is not mentioned is what is the position
of the guy who built them? Does he deny there are
defects? Has he even been asked to make them right?
Courts expect in most cases for you to try to work
with the guy to give him a chance to correct them
before coming to court.

First thing I would do is what someone else suggested.
Get in an expert cabinet guy
and get an estimate of what it takes to make it right,
ie can they be fixed for $2,000 or are they so bad
that you'd have to start all over.

The good news for you is that PA has a high small
claims court limit of $12,000. In many states it's very
low, like $3,000. IMO, small claims is going to be
your only viable option. You could recover up to
$12,000 without legal fees, no lawyer is necessary.
If the cabinets can be made right without doing it all
over, that should cover it.

If you went to regular court and won the entire $25K,
after legal fees you likely wouldn't net much more
anyway. And if you lose, you'd be out the legal fees.
I also doubt paying a lawyer to look into it and send
threatening letters is going to do much good. If you
do go with a lawyer, I'd get a clear cap UP FRONT
on what you're going to pay him or you'll be having
the next dispute with the lawyer when you get a bill
for $2K without anything having been resolved.

As others have pointed out, winning and collecting
are two different things. Shysters like this often are
experts at hiding assets, like putting houses, cars,
and bank accounts in others names. Or he could wind
up declaring bankruptcy before you get to court, etc.
The other important thing here is what form of business
it is, ie sole proprietorship, corporation, etc. That will
determine the entity you can sue and possibly collect
from.

With small claims, it will not cost you much to try
to get made whole. Make sure you document
everything with excellent photos, phone call records,
etc. Show records of how many times you've
called him. With regard to phone calls, if PA allows taping
with one party consent, then I'd tape any calls you
have with him, if that's still possible. Save any
phone messages he leaves you. A guy acting
like an unreasonable AH for the judge to hear can
only help your case. If he says the problem with
the cabinets is X and later in court says it's Y,
you have him destroying his credibility.
And make sure you at least
have a notorized letter from an expert cabinet guy
detailing what is wrong with the cabinets and how
much it will cost to correct. Ideally you'd want him
with you in small claims as a witness.

The thing you better have a good explanation for
is why he was paid in full. And if the cabinets were
not all delivered at once, why you went ahead with
more work when the first ones were defective, etc.

If you want to put some time into it, you might be
able to recover something. Whether you have the
time and inclination to do so is another issue. Me,
I'd do it just to not let the skunk get away with it.
And often skunks like this just don't show up in
court, so you might win by default. But then
collecting is another matter.