On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 14:40:34 -0800 (PST), Ste
wrote:

I'm not really sure what relevance this has to my position on the
matter. I must say I wouldn't be too keen in general to make use of
second-hand cookers and microwaves - the reason such second-hand goods
are cheap relative to new, is precisely because nobody wants them and
because they lack the quality (typically, in terms of appearance) of
new goods.

Rubbish! I have bought most of my appliances second-hand and have
been very pleased with almost all of them. Obviously you have to pick
and choose and wait for the bargains. There are many reasons why
people want to get rid of perfectly good appliances. A common reason
is that they were given a new appliance as a gift (Christmas, birthday
etc.). Another is that they are rich enough to afford to buy the
latest appliances each year. Or perhaps they decided to replace a
unit with a bigger or smaller model. Or were conned into buying an
appliance that is more "green" than the one they had. People moving
house often sell their appliances and get new stuff for the new house
- and in that case they are frequently "free to collector" because the
person is really only looking for a free removal service. In other
cases a well-off householder had replaced a unit simply because it was
getting a bit grubby and it avoided a cleaning job.

Nevertheless, I can think of several people who are making do with
second-hand kitchen appliances - in two such cases, I was called upon
to fit them purely out of the goodness of my heart (which I did not
begrudge).

In a further case, I was asked by the landlord of the property to
replace a cooker as a favour to him. When I did so, I found the wiring
of the old cooker in a dangerous state, and I indulged the boyfriend
of the tenant who was bragging that he had fitted the last one
himself; I return to my point about most people lacking the necessary
skills to fit appliances themselves.

The skills required are minimal. If a person does not want to learn
some very simple skills, I put the blame squarely on that person.
besides, a cooker is about the only appliance that requires any sort
of skills at all - unless you count plugging a unit into the mains
socket a skill.

Don't be such a drama queen. =A0It's all part and parcel of preparing to
live in a new home.

Cynic, exactly what class of people do you have in mind here? The
sorts of people I have in mind, are being forced to move around
involuntarily, and they are typically families who have been in long-
term receipt of benefits.

Why should they be forced to move around involuntarily? I know
several families with all members on long-term benefits and was in
fact thinking of them when I wrote my post. The state pays for their
rent in very reasonable houses that they have lived in for well over a
decade. Apart from moving to more suitable accomodation due to a
change in the size of the family, or moving at the request of the
benefit receiptient themself, the main reason for being shunted from
place to place is if the family cause a nuisance wto their neighbours.

=A0A basic microwave (if necessary borrowed from
friends or family)

How many people do you know who have spare cookers or microwaves just
lying around? I'm clean and creditworthy amongst my friends, and I'm
not sure any of them could easily spare me a microwave or cooker.

Not even for a week or two to tide you over? As said, you can cook
everything you need to eat with just a microwave and a kettle (I've
done it). It's not ideal, but it is perfectly acceptable while you
source other appliances.

In
fact, it's more the case that I'd be called upon to spare one for
others, but I would be extremely reluctant to spare my relatively
expensive appliances to people who do not have the same standards of
cleanliness as I do (or security in their home, or honest social
circle, etc.), and it would be a pure act of charity which I'm sure
any reasonable person would be embarassed to grovel for.

Yes, I can see that the sort of people who are dirty and dishonest
might have a more difficult time getting favours from friends and
relatives than clean, decent honest people. Now how are you going to
blame that on the nasty rish businessmen?

I really do think you're living in a completely different world to the
one I live in Cynic. At the very least, you don't seem to be facing up
to the reality of life in poor *communities*, where it's not just a
case of isolated individuals suffering temporary hard times who can
survive for a while on the charity and goodwill of those who are
comfortable, but where the balance of those who are quite comfortable
in a social group is far too little to possibly subsidise all those
who are not, and where those who are not comfortable will, given the
general trends in society, probably become more uncomfortable with
time rather than less.

Ste, I have actually *lived* in that situation, and so know *very*
well what I am talking about. Perhaps it is yourself who is placing
too much reliance on the veracity of hard-luck stories you have been
told. Whilst I am relatively well off now, I know quite a few people
of all ages who are out of work and have no assets. i know *very*
well what's possible and what's not.

is sufficient to make meals, and the local
laundromat or mummy will clean your clothes - or wash them in the bath
as people used to do if you're really stuck.

So we go back to what I said earlier, about the everyday life of the
poor being actually quite a bit more strenuous and demanding (at least
if they follow your prescriptions), but simultaneously less rewarding.
Even within your own terms Cynic, if a certain behaviour is harder and
less rewarding, you must surely agree it is less likely to be
exhibited.

I was discussing the *temporary* situation after the person has just
moved in to a new unfurnished home. Yes, it will indeed be more
demanding during that time. Some people will sit on their arse, buy
some cheap cider and moan about how unfair everything is whilst not
bothering to wash the home or themselves properly, or even get out of
bed before noon. Others will see it as a challenge and get stuck in
to improve the situation for themselves.

=A0You can indeed rent kitchen appliances instead of buying,
but it is not terrifically cost-effective IMO. =A0Renting electonic
goods such as TV and computers makes a bit more sense in order to
upgrade to the latest and greatest every year.

It probably is not cost effective, but it solves people's problems in
the short term, at the expense of long-term finances. Normally what
people do in the long-term, is start giving up their social and moral
pretenses in order to shed stressors and shed financial costs. So for
example, people stop paying the rent and do moonlight flits, etc.

I don't see "black" work as being immoral. Nor smuggling for tax
evasion purposes. Both are artificial crimes that have been created
due to the inadequacies of the state-imposed systems. HB rent is paid
direct to the landlord, so there is no opportunity to avoid paying it.

--
Cynic