On 12/30/2011 6:30 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:06:45 -0800, Hawke
wrote:

On 12/29/2011 5:36 PM, wrote:
On Dec 29, 8:25 pm, wrote:

So you are saying that the buyers and sellers in the market between
the U.S. and China are not willing buyers and sellers?
If so who is making them buy or sell?

Dan

The buyers and sellers are willing. But all of them are affected by a
certain degree by the governments that run each country . So it's not a
free market because the governments make the decisions about economics
and not the market. When one government won't allow the goods of a
competitor into it's country but has free access for it's products in
that same country that isn't free trade. When any country is practicing
protectionism you don't have a free market. In world trade every
government is playing games to benefit itself at the expense of everyone
else. So there is no free trade.

Hawke

So you are saying that all goods are affected and there are no goods
which are bought and sold freely?

No, I'm not saying that. All over the world there are examples of free
markets operating but they are very small and don't really amount to
much. Lots of locally bought and sold things are free market. If you buy
some pot for a guy in your neighborhood that is pretty much a free
market item. Some people selling home grown food or produce or handmade
products to people nearby qualify as being a free market. But these
things are on the Mom and Pop level and amount to little as far as what
they are worth. Most goods sold worldwide are not like these small local
things.


I think you will find that some goods are traded in a free market and
some are not.

Yeah, I agree with that but when you look at world trade or even
national trade you find that so much of it is not free in any way and
that most things you buy are bought this way shows what I mean. You buy
a flat screen TV. You buy a car, clothes, anything from Walmart or the
grocery store. Almost all of it is coming from free markets that are in
reality not free at all because so much trade protection is going on.
Numerous books have been written about the "myth" of the free market,
which I happen to agree with.

Hawke

You are of course correct but do look into what are usually called
"gray markets" or "direct import", where a bloke flies from XXistan to
Singapore, buys up a bunch of TV parts and flies home to sell them. In
some developing it constitutes a large percentage of their trade.



People everywhere are always doing everything they can to avoid the
restraints put on them by governments. Like the examples you cited or to
things like cigarettes people sell under the table to avoid the taxes on
them or even on illegal drugs or even things like hiring labor to work
under the table or building structures not up to code. We all do it to
some degree. But the bulk of everything bought and sold throughout the
world is done under the umbrella of governments and they are all
manipulating everything they can in the attempt to get an advantage for
their country. I can't say I blame them. But with that happening
everywhere it means that free markets are a thing of the past. But that
may be a good thing.

Hawke