DIYbanter - View Single Post - GE Paid No Taxes on $14 Billion in Profits

Hawke[_3_]

On 11/22/2011 4:38 AM, wrote:
On Nov 22, 12:40 am, wrote:

You are a true believer. No matter what evidence is presented to
you , you do not change your opinions.

As soon as you present compelling evidence that what I say is wrong then
I'll quickly change my tune. But that's the catch. You have to present
"compelling" evidence to get me to change my view. Since my view is
based on facts that means you are going to have a hell of a time proving
me wrong. I'm still waiting to see you to do it even once.

That's okay. Any company that isn't American can expect to have not so
good terms for doing business in this country. Our companies would find
it advantageous to remain American.

So much for equal under the law.

Equal treatment under the law is a legal term with specific meanings.
When it comes to things that are matters related to economics it's a
different story because it's commercial. You will find that commercial
interests are not treated the same as others. For example, in the law
commercial speech isn't treated the same as the free speech of
individuals. But that's not equal treatment under the law is it?
Commercial speech isn't given the same weight as individuals' speech.
Sorry Bro, but that is what equal "under the law" means. Everything
isn't treated as if it's the same.

As I said in my last post I am using GE as a symbol for corporations
making lots of money and paying nothing in taxes while the little guy
pays a third of his income in taxes. My point is that unfairness of that
situation. GE is getting specific tax credits and breaks for things the
government is encouraging it to do. I'm all for that. But we have the
same thing to a certain extent going on with almost all companies. They
are all getting breaks so they can avoid paying taxes while the regular
guy gets none of that and pays a high percentage of what he makes.
That's not fair.

Congress created this. They think it is fair. The tax deductions
corporations use are all created because Congress thought they were
fair. And if you examine each one, you would probably agree. And
then bitch about the result.

Congress creates this, that's true. But they do that because of the
pressure exerted on them by business lobbying. In 1986 Reagan cleaned
out almost all the tax breaks for business and lowered the overall
corporate tax rate but they have been incrementally working their way
back in. They do that because lobbyists keep hounding congress to give
their special interest a break. Congress needs to say no. It's just not
fair or ethical for anyone to get special treatment because they are
bribing our lawmakers to get it, and that is what we have now.

Any way you slice it Nordstroms is a very good company and very
profitable. They sell to Americans so they have to pay most of their
taxes here. They may be one of the few companies that has a high tax
burden. But then so do the competitors in their industry. It's fair.
They make good profits. We don't know how much they make according to
what they are worth. Too bad we can't get all companies to pay this
much. If we could then we could think about lowering all their rates but
as we know most corporations are paying no income taxes.

But we know no such thing. You claim that most corporation are paying
almost no income tax. But the actual facts are different.

One thing we do know is that most corporations are not paying anything
near 35%. The real rate is less than 18%. That data comes from the NY
Times and says.

A comprehensive study released on Thursday found that 280 of the biggest
publicly traded American companies faced federal income tax bills equal to
18.5 percent of their profits during the last three years — little more than
half the official corporate rate of 35 percent and lower than their
competitors
in many industrialized countries.

That's a quote from a NY Times article. So you see, I'm not just blowing
smoke. This is a fact. The real tax rate for most American corporations
is on the low end of the scale compared to other countries. As I've said
before, our companies are lying. They pay low taxes already and
constantly whine their taxes need to be cut. What more do I need to say?
Looks to me like you're the one who never changes his mind despite the
facts proving you wrong.

I'm not bothered by what seems contradictory. This is a unique case
where the country wants companies to take risks in the energy sector. We
need the energy and it's worth it to take some risk trying to get ahead
in this field. Most companies don't get this kind of favorable
treatment. Other larger factors are at play so it's fine what they are
doing.

No you are never bothered by facts.

Why would I be? They're always on my side. I don't argue a position
without facts. I don't hold views just because I like the sound of them.
I have the facts first, then I form an opinion. I know that's real
unusual for people around here but that is how I do it. I get the facts
first and then proceed from there.

So pick your pony. Clean energy or companies paying more in income
taxes.

I pick both. I want clean energy and I want corporations to pay at least
25% of the country's tax revenues. They used to and we'd be fine if they
still did. More ordinary people would have more money to spend and the
economy would be more vibrant.

Ah, but you can not pick both. The each option excludes the other.

No it doesn't. It simply assumes that we can choose to have a clean
environment or a dirty one. We can have a prosperous country either way.
EPA has been around for 40 years now and you tell me how has American
business done in that period? I'd say very well, thanks, and that
includes being required to produce products without polluting the ****
out of the country. So it can be done. But the government has to make
business do what is right most of the time. Generally business does
whatever is easiest and doesn't worry about the consequences. Just like
when it cut down all the forests before realizing that wasn't a good
idea. Without conservationists like TR what would business have done to
the environment?

Of course you do realise that the average guy is going to come out
about the same. They can have more money after taxes but with GE
paying more income taxes, they will raise the price of electric
generators and the power companies will raise their rates. The same
with groceries , autos, gasoline , medicine etc.

It won't be one of one. Some prices may go up but over all the amount of
extra money most people would have would make a big difference in
economic activity.

Right. High corporate taxes are a regressive form of tax. It all
gets passed on and the little guy pays a lot more of what he earns.

But it only applies to what you buy. The less you buy the lower your
tax, and it doesn't all get passed on to the consumer. So you can decide
how much tax you want to pay by deciding how much you want to consume.

Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.

All I can say is things would be a lot better for a lot more people if
we did what I recommend. We tried what the republicans recommended back
in the first seven years of this century. It didn't work. Now it's my
turn. I'm sure my ideas will produce better results than the ones those
people tried.

Of course you believe your ideas are great. However Congress has
considered them and thinks your ideas are not good.

Not only did congress consider my ideas they put them in place. Just
look at what happened when Clinton passed his tax increases. Revenue
went up, the budget got balanced, the debt was being paid off, business
boomed. All this was not supposed to happen according to the republicans
who predicted dire things would happen if Clinton raised taxes.

So the country has done a lot of what I call for and the record is
clear, it worked far better than the methods the republican's call for.
The problem is we've been playing by the right wing rule book for
decades and look at what has happened. I say throw that book in the
trash and start doing the things I say will work and have worked when
allowed to be used.

Hawke