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J. Clarke[_2_]

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...
In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...
In article ,
says...

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
in.local...
In article ,

says...

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

[snip]

Now, about EPA overreach and the dishwasher detergent
regulations:
They
aren't from EPA at all. It's 16 individual states that
enacted
the
near-ban
in 2009 and 2010.

The question is what prompted them.

And if the EPA had declared dishwasher detergent phosphate
use
as
de
minimus, the states would not have argued. Actually, they
could
not
have argued, by federal preemption. So, we are back in
Washington.

Uh, I'm not sure where preemption enters this. EPA did not
dictate
to
the
states what they had to do. They supplied research and
analysis.

There was a recent Supreme Court case on just this. If the
Feds
have
entered an area, the states have to back off.

For instance http://www.faegre.com/13445.

There may be others, but I wasn't paying attention at the
time.

Joe Gwinn

Yeah, I'm aware of the law regarding federal preemption, but I
have
seen
no
evidence that it applies in this case. If the EPA wrote a
regulation
on
it
and if a state tried to oppose it, there would be a preemption
case.

Again, I have not come across any such issue in the little
reading
I've
done
about it.

I believe that he's saying that IF the EPA had declared
phosphates
in
dishwasher detergent to be ACCEPTABLE then the states could not
have
banned it.

If that's what he's saying, that's not the case. On the other hand,
if
the
EPA banned it, and a state tried to legalize it, preemption would
have
kicked in.

That's the case with lots of laws. Unless there's a 14th Amendment
issue
involved (regarding a "fundamental right"), or some specific
federal
authorization, states can make more restrictive laws than the
related
federal ones. Those issues have been involved, with the resolution
still
to
be determined, over immigration. Likewise, even after a
constitutional
Amendment legalizing alcohol, states can regulate it, and can
authorize
municipalities to outlaw its sale.

I didn't follow this dishwasher-detergent/phosphate law to the end
of
the
line, but it looks like the EPA wasn't involved in the bans. It
appears
that
it's all state law. I could be mistaken, but I didn't see any
federal
administrative law involved in it.

I don't recall that the EPA did anything explicit either, which is
the
point. The EPA could have prevented extension to dishwasher
detergents
with a word, but chose not to. (One assumes that there were lots of
private discussions.)

In other words, if the EPA had said that a dishwashing detergent
phosphate ban was unnecessary, it would have undermined efforts in
the
states to legislate or by regulation impose such a ban, and no such
bans
would have happened.

Joe Gwinn

I have no way to know if that's the case, but, assuming it is, I'd
still
want to see some up-to-date reports that analyze these challenged
rivers
and
estuaries before making a judgment. I'm not convinced that the cost of
eliminating phosphates is greater than the cost of not doing so.

Who washes the dishes in your house and do they use a dishwasher?

Me. Yes. Always.

And you're not getting white crud all over everything?

Nope. I'm using Finish powder, "phosphate-free."

I have no trouble with cleaning. My interest perked up when Joe mentioned
the stink. I have had some stink, but not all the time.

I'll have to try Finish next time--Cascade just makes a mess. Didn't
used to before the phosphates were removed.