On Tue, 10 May 2011 21:49:36 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

On 5/10/2011 9:26 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2011 12:26:16 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

On 5/10/2011 12:14 PM, said this:
On Tue, 10 May 2011 07:03:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In ,
says...

On Mon, 09 May 2011 08:10:13 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

On 5/6/2011 6:11 PM, said this:
On Fri, 06 May 2011 08:49:50 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
wrote:

On 5/5/2011 8:03 PM, DGDevin said this:


"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message ...

And the perfect solution for this is .... letting the *government*
run it, right?

Did I say that? No? Well then.

In other wealthy nations the govt. has a significant role, sometimes just
setting the rules, in other cases serving as the single payer while
doctors and hospitals remain independent, sometimes actually operating
health care right down to the doctor's office. A mixed public/private
system seems to work well in many places. The Swiss system is
interesting, buying insurance is compulsory but the insurance companies
have to provide basic coverage on a non-profit basis (and they cannot
turn away anyone), they make their profits on supplemental coverage.

In any case the current U.S. system is untenable, with costs spiraling
out of sight and an increasing percentage of the population without
coverage. A bloated, top-heavy insurance industry that sucks money out of
health care and has a tendency to put its own profits ahead of patient
care would seem to be a big part of the problem, got any ideas on what
might be done about that?

That's all true as written, but is missing an essential point:
The *reason* things are the way they are is *because* government
got into the healthcare business in the first place. That
"bloated top-heavy insurance industry" is simply mimicking its
paymaster - the government. Adding more government - particularly
at the Federal level - will simply make things worse.
Unless you take the bloated, top-heavy, greedy insurance industry out
of the mix entirely, so there is only ONE level of top-heavy, bloated
buerocracy involved.

And just how do you propose to do that? At the point of a gun?
Canada did it with no shots fired. Basic "health insurance" is
provided directly by the government. Inefficient as all get out, but
al least only one level of incompetence.

The thing is, the American public doesn't want the government to be
running medicine. If they did it would already be a done deal. So
instead we get cosmetic lunacy like Obamacare.
Let's face it, the "average american" doesn't want the government
involved in ANYTHING that cost's money, or anything that might help
someone who either won't or can't hepl themselves. Still looking for a
Pinko in every corner.

That's not really the problem. The Sheeple want lots and lots and lots
of "free" (to them) social services. They do not wish to personally
pay for it, so the political types peddle this fantasy of "We can help
if you'll just vote for us."

But what that inevitably ends up meaning is, "We'll create a bureaucracy
that is more self-interested than interested in serving the constituency."
This makes the Sheeple further dependent on their Congress Critters -
exactly what all incumbents, especially, love.

This then leads to financial disaster and the politicians start selling
"Let's make the rich pay more" even though the "rich" pay over 90% of
Federal taxes in the US.

I share your view that the US system is insane because it props up
two inefficient bureaucracies: The private-sector delivery and
insurance system, and the government payment system. But the
way to fix this isn't to get rid of the private sector. It's to
get rid of the government bureaucracy and let markets fix the
private sector as they do so well.
Markets do NOT fix the private sector where "essential services" are
involved.
If they did, you would have private fee-for service fire protection,
and "policing" as well. When a private company/consortium, like, say,

Policing requires force and force is legally (almost) the sole domain
of government for a variety of reasons.

BIG OIL gets a monopoly, they have the country (and the world) by the
short and curlies - and they will NOT let go.

The only Western monopolies that ever existed that were *predatory*
were the ones enabled by government. Predatory monopoly can only
exist with force. Without it, the overpricing will be corrected by
government. Think public utilities vs. IBM or Microsoft. No
truly private monopoly can get away with predatory pricing and
survive.

The same is VERY TRUE of health care. Your private health care
providers (HMOs?) make obscene profits strictly because they can. Your

Businesses exist to make a profit. You think doctors, nurses,
pharma researchers, and their supporting staff should work for free
maybe?

Not at all. A couple hundred thousand a year for the professionals
listed is sensible. A couple million is criminal, when the average
skilled worker makes something like $60 thousand.

financial companies, banks, and insurance companies do the same, for
the same reason. CEOs and CFOs, as well as managers all down the line
get multi-million dollar bonuses while the companies are loosing
money and shareholders are bleeding - because they CAN. And the CAN
because your government hasn't got (and never has had, regardless
which party in in power - the jumbos or the jackasses) the balls to
stand up to them and regulate them into acceptable behaviour. They

Typically wrong. These healthcare providers don't have to be efficient
because they are *guaranteed government payment* no matter how well or
poorly they perform. It is the absence of markets, not the absence
of government that has created the mess.

Guaranteed government payment in the American system pre-Obama????
Absense of markets when there is a doctor shortage in almost any major
city (at least in Canada)?

And what about the insurance and financial companies???

haven't the balls or the stomach to do it because they know they will
not get elected to a second term if they do, because Americans do not
want their Government involved in their lives PERIOD.

That's the best part of being an American.

Also the worst.

Regulating banks and financial institutions is the tip of the wedge
that will turn their country into a communist state like North Korea,
or North Vietnam, or their good friends and financial "benefactors"
the Red Chinese. And government controlled/paid HEALTH CARE!!!!!
That's half way up the wedge.The poor cannot afford health care?

I grew up poor, long before US government run healthcare. This
is baldly false and unhinged from reality. We always had essential
healthcare even when there was only $20 for food.

As long as you didn't get sick you could live.

Tough. It'll cull out the "weak" - and the "weak" are the "socialist
scum" that drag down your great country - making it more difficult for
the rest of the unwashed masses to grab on to the AMERICAN DREAM.

That is true.

And a very sad commentary on the American culture.


Like Marie Antoinette said when told the peasants had no bread - "let
them eat cake".

I'm glad I don't live in the USA. And I hope and pray that out
government doesn't drag us down the American garden path.

Thank goodness we didn't elect the American University Prof as our
PM!!!!

I was born in Canada. It's a wonderful place with largely terrific
people. I chose to become an American citizen.
Glad you are happy with your choice.