On Mar 30, 3:24*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 29, 11:38*pm, RicodJour wrote:





On Mar 29, 9:47*pm, "
wrote:

On Mar 29, 6:00*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 29, 5:02*pm, "
On Mar 29, 12:00*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 29, 11:33*am, "

The other problem with the whole Walmart bashing is that there is
no better solution to free markets. * To try to stop Walmart from
selling those $3 hammers would require slapping on tarriffs. *And
then the foreign govts just do likewise and slap on tarriffs against
the likes of Intel or Boeing, which are major American exporters.
It's like trying to limit the internet, or shovel crap against the
tide.

Tariffs like VATs?

No, a value added tax is very different from a tariff.

*Like essentially every country in the world has
except for the US?

You didn't read the links I provided, did you?

Typical. *You don't even understand the basics, yet
you want a VAT. * Ever see a tax you didn't like?
You think just maybe the problem isn't that the govt
taxes too little, but that it spends way too much?

Now it's quite clear you didn't. *Why would you comment on my post
without reading all of it? *You don't even know my point, yet you're
telling me things I think which are entirely, and completely wrong.
That does us both a disservice and we both deserve better.

I read until I got to the part where you claimed a VAT and a tariff
are the same thing. * And you were wishing for a VAT as some kind of
solution. *As if we don't have enough taxes already. * That is all
I needed to read.

The taxes are on foreign companies. *The taxes only infringe on your
behavior if you've developed a preference for buying foreign goods.
If you prefer "cheaper at all costs", well, then, you've got it and it
doesn't sound like you're too thrilled with it.

This is where you are just plain wrong. *Look up the definition of a
VAT
tax. *The EU VAT is a good example. *It is a VALUE ADDED TAX and
it applies at each stage as goods make their way to the consumer.
Company A buys copper ore for $100 and they pay a 20% tax on it, $20.
* They turn it into copper sheets and sell it to company B for $150.
* Company B pays the 20% tax on the $150, $30 and hands the
payment over to Company A. * *Company A then
takes their taxes paid previously, $20, from the $30 just collected
and
sends the $10 net tax to the govt.

That's how a VAT works and it hits virtually all goods sold within the
EU. *The fact that it's collected also on imports coming from outside
*is a side point. *That portion is roughly equivalent to a tariff, as
far
as appearances to the foreign company. * *And in
*the end, that $10 is coming out of the pocket of the consumer.







The problem is that we're taxing the people instead of taxing for the
people, and we're protecting other countries governments, not their
little people.

I just explained to you how your VAT or higher income taxes are
just another cost that businesses then pass on to their customers,
which include the "little people". * What happens to the price of
corn flakes when the cost of corn goes up? * Why would that
corn flake manufacturer treat the extra $1mil they have to pay
for copper any differently than they treat it if they hand it over to
the govt? *Answer: *they don't they just pass it on.

However,if you hit an American company with higher taxes
while their competitors in foreign countries pay lower taxes, then
they wind up at a competitive disadvantage, start to lose business,
and so it goes. *Eventually the govt here can wind up with either the
same tax money they had before the increase, or less. *Meanwhile
economic growth suffers. *Only libs think of the world as static when
it comes to economics.

You didn't read the links below - it's abundantly clear from your
comments. *The VAT I'm talking about is on imports. *Do yourself a
favor and read this one if not the other two - it's PDF and
essentially a slideshow. *Won't take you long.http://www.reverecopper.com/pdf/TownHall.pdf

Here's an excerpt:

Double Jeopardy
• Currently, producers of goods & services in the USA pay numerous
taxes to the USA government and health care costs for employees
which are not rebated when the goods & services are exported.
• But the USA produced goods & services must pay a VAT tax to
finance a foreign government when they arrive in that country. We
even help pay for their health care costs!
• So exports from the USA are double taxed.
• The VAT taxes collected by foreign governments allow them to have
reduced (fewer/none) taxes and health care costs on production of
goods & services in their countries.

http://www.reverecopper.com/pdf/MyCo...p://www.revere...
(the links have similar names, but they're different)

None of the above changes a VAT tax into
a tarriff. * Only someone trying to confuse people would refer to a
protectionist trade tariff as a VAT. * And who do you think is paying
those VAT taxes? *It's the people in those VAT countries who
are consuming the goods they are importing.

Yes, exactly. *I see no problem with people buying American to support
America. *And what exactly is wrong with a protectionist tariff if it
is merely bringing the US into line with what _every_ other country in
the world is doing? *It is not protectionist so much as the current
state of affairs.

The VAT tax you are referencing applies not only to imports in those
countries, but also to THEIR OWN GOODS, at every step of the
manufacturing process. * Hence, applying the VAT on imports is
already leveling the playing field. *Going back to the copper example,
if they didn't apply it to the imported copper product, then that
overseas company would have an advantage over a company in
the EU.

If any country or company has a bitch about tariffs and unfair trade
*practices, they can bring a case to the WTO.

*You want a different world - me, too.
Unfortunately we live in this one and it is simply stupid to put some
theoretical ideal ahead of pragmatism, particularly when that
theoretical ideal is based on some theoretical philosophy of how
things should work in a "perfect" world.

I'd argue that pragmatism is precisely what has gotten us to
where we are. *Republicans in particular, became pragmatic
and said to hell with conservative principles. *As long as they
got their piece of the spending pie too, they were OK with
a huge increase in all kinds of prgrams and wasteful spending.



So, because someone in Germany buys a Dell computer and gets
hit with a 20% VAT tax, your solution is to put in place a VAT tax
in the USA? *So everybody that touches the material that went
into that computer, all along the process, gets hit with a VAT tax
too? * Only makes sense if you're tax happy and looking for
one of the worst possible taxes, complete with reems of paper
work for everyone all along the way.

It's an import tax. *You wouldn't be the one filling out the reams of
paper.

Again, a VAT and an import tax are two very different things. *A VAT
is more like a national sales tax that applies at every sale all along
the production path for an item. And
with a VAT, there is paperwork at every step of the production of
a product, each time it moves from one company to another.
Then add in another 100,000 federal employees to take care of
their end of it. *Who fills it all out matters because we, the
consumer,
*end up paying for it.







In response to the bitching about China devaluing their currency, if
that's such a swell idea and how a country becomes a super power,
how come it hasn't worked here? *The dollar has fallen 35% against
the euro and the price of gold has tripled in the last 10 years,
yet here we are, stuck in the mud. * The dollar has also fallen
against the yuan over that same period. *That's right, it's fallen
about 20% in the last decade against the Chinese currency.
Your buddy over at Revere is just bitching because he would
like the dollar to fall more in international markets. * And what
makes him or anybody else the expert on what the yuan vs
$$ exchange rate should be?


Governments like VAT (which we have here in the UK) because they are
easy to collect and change. Someone else has all the work/expense.
Separate accounts have to be kept for the VAT, people make a good
living out of knowing the loopholes and fiddles.

In the end all that counts is international trade deficites/
surplusses. The path of money inside a country can vary, it's just a
matter of division.
The Chinese have a virtual slave workforce. The playing filed is not
level.