On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:38:52 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"k-nuttle" wrote in message
...
On 3/20/2011 8:46 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:20:02 -0700, Dan
wrote:

On 3/19/2011 9:01 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

New homes are designed to be one-flush with low-flow toilets. 3"
waste lines and rat's nest plumbing are no longer used. OTOH,
retrofitting a low-flow toilet into an older home can be a problem.
We don't have a problems (well, not much[*]) with our new home,
either, but I know a lot of people with older homes that do.

[*] They don't seem to stay as clean as the older toilets.

My house was built in 1973. I have replaced two of its three toilets
with low flow toilets. The new ones work better than the old high
flow toilet.

Because you had no problems doesn't mean that there are no problems.


Not sure why you say what you do above. I've been looking into low flows
in
anticipation of some remodeling work that will begin sometime in the near
future, and I have not encountered anything that even suggests that 3"
plumbing will not work with the new toilets. Rat's nest plumbing - well,
that's a different thing, but that can't be counted on to work with
anything.

Your most recent statement above is even more confusing. If you're going
to
make a leading statement like that, then how about throwing a couple/few
ideas out there that take this conversation in a specific direction. If
there are things to be mindful of that I haven't discovered or considered
yet, I'd sure like to know before I get into another of the dreaded
p-l-u-m-b-i-ng jobs.

Go to google and type "california problems with low flow toilets" into the
search window you will see hundreds of articles on the problems caused by
low flow toilets

This is a specific article that appeared on CNN recently

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/01...san-francisco/

Why am I not suprised that it is once again a California problem. And in
the last 20+ years there are hundreds of articles on problems with toilets.
There are millions of these toilets in use, not having problems.

California always leads the nation in trying out newest, greenest
things. When we went from 3.4gal to 2gal using bricks and gallon
water bottles, it worked. When we went from 2gal to 1.6gal, it worked.
But now, with the 1.4gal and 1.1gal models, **** happened.

In SF's case here, they are using so little water now that their
sewers are not being swept, so **** sits everywhere in puddles,
reeking as a result. They're saving 20 million gallons/year now and
it's causing other problems.

From the wiki article:

"US standards for low-flow and high-efficiency toilets

A pre 1994 flush-toilet or gravity-fed toilet uses 13 litres (3.4 US
gallons or 2.8 imperial gallons) or more per flush. In 1992, the
United States Congress passed the Energy Policy Act of 1992, which
mandated that, from 1994, the common flush-toilet use only 1.6 US
gallons (6 litres) of water per flush. In response to the Act,
manufacturers produced low-flow toilets, which many consumers did not
like. Manufacturers responded to consumers' complaints by improving
the toilets. The improved products are generally identified as high
efficiency toilets or HETs. HETs possess an effective flush volume of
4.8 litres (1.28 US gallons) or less.[13] HETs may be single-flush or
dual-flush. A dual-flush toilet permits its user to choose between two
amounts of water.[14] Some HETs are pressure-assisted (or
power-assisted or pump-assisted or vacuum-assisted). The performance
of a flush-toilet may be rated by a Maximum Performance (MaP) score.
The low end of MaP scores is 250. The high end of MaP scores is 1000.
A toilet with a MaP score of 1000 should provide trouble-free service.
It should remove all waste with a single flush; it should not plug; it
should not harbor any odor; it should be easy to keep clean. The
United States Environmental Protection Agency uses a MaP score of 350
as the minimum performance threshold for HETs.[13] 1.6 gpf toilets are
also sometimes referred as ULF toilets (or Ultra Low Flow) toilets."

I'm wondering if these SF toilets are meeting the HET threshold.
I'll bet not. And the sewers sure ain't!

--
"I probably became a libertarian through exposure to tough-minded
professors" James Buchanan, Armen Alchian, Milton Friedman "who
encouraged me to think with my brain instead of my heart. I
learned that you have to evaluate the effects of public policy
as opposed to intentions."
-- Walter E. Williams