In article ,
"DGDevin" wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
m...

The Bush administration decided it could listen to your phone calls and
read
your e-mails without a court order,

I never have gotten a real good fix on this. My understanding is that
taps were on overseas telephones.

The taps--or rather the splices that duplicate all e-mail and telephone
traffic for computerized monitoring--are in centers that handle virtually
all such traffic in the U.S. and as it happens in much of the world. So in
effect we're trusting them to listen to all our calls but only pay attention
if the other end of the call is overseas. Sure, that sounds just dandy,
it's not like they'd *ever* break those rules.

If they were, indeed, in centers in the US then it was illegal (w/o
warrant, of course). However, I still haven't been enlightened as to
where the tap was placed. Outside the US, it is legal (or more
succinctly not illegal. Subtle yet important difference.)

Since there is no law or
constitutional concern about what is done outside the US, this is a
non-issue.

Even if one end of the communication is in the U.S., and belongs to a
citizen? There was already a special court set up to deal with such cases,
but the previous administration thought no warrants at all was a better way
to go. Sadly, the current administration is going along with that,
apparently they want to expand the power of federal agencies to get your ISP
to identify you and dump your data with just a "security letter" rather than
a court order. Sounds kind of Constitutional to me.
As long as the tapped line or intercepted communication is done
overseas, then it makes no difference if one person from the US happens
to call. Courts have said that as long as the tap is not illegal,
anybody calling the tapped phone can be nailed. Goomba 1 has a tap on
his line, Goomba 2 calls and talks about a murder. Then such statements
can be used against G2.
So, again, assuming that the tap is done overseas, it is probably
(since I don't know that the courts have parsed it quite this fine)
admissible.


BTW, are you suggesting that the U.S. govt. is not required to obey U.S. law
off U.S. soil?

NO, but the US Code on wiretapping specifically states that the
interception has to be originated in the States or possessions. From the
law enforcement standpoint, wiretapping isn't so much law as it is
procedures developed to keep the Courts happy based on their rulings. It
also is well established that the Constitution's provisions don't apply
to non-citizens outside the US.
Again, I still don't have any sources making clear where the taps
(splices) are actually being attached. If at the local switching station
in Iran, then it is probably legal. If not, then there is a problem.

According to a long line of court decisions, as long as a tap
on a phone is not illegal, then anybody calling that phone (even if that
phone is in the US) is fair game.

And if they make it so all taps are legal, even without a court order,
bingo--no more pesky Constitution getting in the way.

Which isn't remotely what I am arguing.

about that? But now you're incensed that the Dems passed a law requiring
you to have health insurance in the way you already need auto insurance,

Not hardly. You only need car insurance if you want a car. You have
to buy health insurance if you want to live in the US. BIG difference.

It is a significant difference, but the alternative was to bankrupt the
insurance companies if they weren't allowed to refuse coverage or drop
coverage upon illness--nobody would buy insurance until they got sick. But
given that U.S. health insurance companies absorb far more for
"administrative overhead" than health coverage administration does anywhere
else in the world, maybe bankrupting them might be the way to go, or at
least confine them to luxury care for those who can afford it.
Significant differences are enough to ignore the constitution?
(Okay MAYBE to ignore the constitution, we'll see how the Supremes
rule).
Interestingly, there is plenty of evidence that this doesn't work
anyway. MA has had similar rules for a few years and yet people are not
signing up until they are sick. Interesting to see how it works out
nationwide.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke