On 5/12/2010 11:55 AM, DGDevin wrote:
"Steve wrote in message
...
Ah yes, those EVIL capitalists! If it weren't for them we wouldn't have
any illegal immigration...
Yup, that's pretty much how it works. No jobs = not too damn many
illegal
immigrants, 'cause they don't come to America just for laughs.
How telling that you completely snipped my preceding explanation of a
completely different reason why Mexicans are coming here illegally, and
you choose instead to focus instead on the Evil Capitalists.
Correct, I didn't join you in your absurd fantasy about Mexicans et al.
being part of a deliberate invasion. I wonder how many of those guys in the
Home Depot parking lot know that *really* they're part of an invading army,
not men looking for day-labor jobs in landscaping or construction? You
can't get a better secret plan than one in which even the participants don't
know they're part of it, can you. How about those European illegal workers
on the east coast--Poles and Hungarians and so on, taking construction jobs
away from Americans since they work off the books and don't need workers
comp and so on--are they part of the plot too?
Yeah, there are radicals who make fiery speeches about the
"reconquista"--but the people who run the border are here looking for work,
not as part of a political movement.
Never mind that the minimum wage and other bureaucratic red tape prevents
American companies from competing in the global economy and making a
profit using legal American workers.
Would you like to try living on minimum wage, much less a lower rate of pay?
No? Kind of ironic for you to suggest others should, isn't it.
We must spend government resources to punish them (and probably drive them
out of business) for hiring the very illegals we can't keep out of the
country because we don't have the balls to treat this problem for what it
really is: An invasion.
Please outline the scenario in which these companies have no choice but to
hire illegals--other than a shortage of Americans willing to do those jobs.
You feel compelled to defend these corporations, yet in so doing you in
effect admit they're part of the problem because they hire illegal workers
who according to you are part of an invasion. You can't have it both ways,
at least not if you want to maintain any sort of credibility.
You can walk
through any meat packing plant and hear almost nothing but Spanish, are
we
supposed to believe the management at that company had no idea most of
their
workers are not legal residents? That's not even a good joke.
So? They're doing what it takes to stay in business. They're hiring
people who are willing to work for the wages that allows them to stay
competitive.
Let me get this straight--those packing plants managed to operate at a
profit for most of the nation's history with legal workers, but suddenly the
only way they can stay in business is to hire illegal workers? If every
meat-packing company were forced to hire Americans, surely that would remove
any competitive advantage one might get by hiring cheaper illegal workers,
would it not? Of course that would mean those pork chops on your plate
would cost you a bit more.
If Americans won't fill those jobs, that seems like a guest-worker program
such as Bush 43 proposed early in his Presidency would be a good idea.
There have been such programs in the past, there is no reason to think they
won't work again.
The Obama administration has expanded a Bush admin pilot program to
identify
and deport illegal aliens who end up in jail, even San Francisco is going
along with it. So yeah, when the govt. actually *tries* it turns out
sometimes it is effective.
Oh right, that will make a huge dent in the problem. That's like stepping
on cockroaches you can actually *see* and thinking you've killed them all.
So first you complain the govt. does nothing, then shown that the govt. is
doing something you complain it won't work. Some people get off on the very
act of complaining, it keeps them off the streets I suppose.
What part of deported don't you get?
Using the plan you outlined above? LOL! What about the 95% who haven't
done something obviously stupid and gotten thrown in jail? There's all
the rest of your cockroaches right there.
A) I didn't outline a plan, I mentioned one govt. action. B) This brings us
back to going after employers since that is where you'll find illegal
workers in large numbers, that part seems to have dropped out of your
short-term memory. And C) you like to compare illegal aliens to cockroaches
for some reason, why is that?
So after we've spent all the money on the "clamping down" program and
taken away all their employment opportunities (and driven the Evil
Capitalists out of business), to get the remaining 95% that weren't thrown
in jail we'll have to spend how much more money to track them all down and
get them deported? You've got to FIND them first!
Wait a minute, what if there *weren't* any illegal aliens to begin with
(oh I'm sorry; "undocumented residents") to feed the employment needs of
the evil profiteering (primarily white) capitalists? Wouldn't those
capitalists have to resort to becoming law abiding citizens once again
by
hiring regular law abiding citizens?
And your solution for bringing this about would be exactly what?
Securing our borders, of course! Imagine each and every one of those
illegal invaders were visibly ARMED as they entered the country.
Suddenly, this changes to a military situation, and we're talking numbers
that are on par with a full-scale military invasion, correct?
Good grief. "Imagine" something that isn't real, and then act as if it
were. Man, what color is the sky on your planet?
Wouldn't we then be justified and compelled to take military action to
prevent the invasion? WE ARE BEING INVADED - what difference does it make
whether the intruders are visibly armed or not? Why is it that the
seemingly "peaceful" nature of the invasion causes us to lay down our guns
and turns us into a bunch of tolerance pansies?
Too funny. You're outraged at what it would cost to find and deport illegal
aliens, but now you want to spend untold billions to fortify the borders and
line up troops there. The phrase "cognitive dissonance" comes to mind.
BTW, I have no problem with illegal aliens being deported (starting with the
hardened criminals), I'd like to see a more secure border and so on. But
that doesn't stop me from seeing the root cause of illegal immigration, and
that is the availability of *jobs* for those people. When I hire someone I
collect multiple documents proving they're citizens and write down the
numbers on a govt. form. But guess what? The govt. doesn't even
cross-check to make sure the S/S security on that form actually belongs to
the person named as being hired! Does that strike you as a serious loophole
in the system? Doesn't it seem like in the computer age that would be an
easy check to do?
Illegal workers are here because industry wants them here, companies like
the cheap labor, and apparently Americans like the cheap food etc. resulting
from that cheap labor. The last time there was a big immigration crackdown,
strawberry farmers in Washington state had to plow under their crops because
they couldn't find pickers. So if *you* don't mind paying more for
strawberries, okay, let's hire Americans to do that work (at higher wages,
with workers comp and so on) and everybody is happy. Except you won't be
happy, you'll be bitching about the price of strawberries.
sigh By now this thread is very old and this group moves too fast for me to
keep up, especially since I've been ill and my job has flat-out overwhelmed me,
so I scarcely have the energy to pick apart your lengthy response and I'm
inclined to just say "you win", but I still have a few points I'd like to make.
I wouldn't have argued that the easy availability of jobs isn't the only reason
for illegal immigration if I didn't have at least *some* evidence to back it
up. I know a LOT of people with direct ties into Mexico (Austin isn't very far
away), and I've listened to way too many first-hand accounts to arrive at your
conclusion that they're all just here for the jobs. You do know that a great
many countries don't have much love for America, right? Do you think that
Mexico loves America? The pre-9/11 days of an "invincible" America are gone.
Arguably, that blatant act of terrorism could have been prevented, but we were
complacent and ignored the warning signs. Are there other warning signs we're
ignoring? How many other (perhaps subtle) ways can America's security be
undermined? Should we really be anything less than completely paranoid about
the motives of *anyone* who is here illegally, regardless of what country
they're from?
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/