On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 16:52:16 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 13:04:35 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
snip
Fraud is always criminal
snip
Actually no. There is "civil fraud," which may also be "criminal
fraud." It depends on the scale, i.e. number of people and the
amount of money involved, intent, planning and a number of other
factors.
George....Civil fraud doesnt involve many many millions of dollars.
see
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/307056
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud
While "civil fraud" is easier to prove, i.e. the standard is
"preponderance of the evidence," criminal cases require "proof
beyond a reasonable doubt" It appears from the media reports that
Goldman-Sachs with their Abacus scam crossed well over into
"criminal fraud" territory.
Indeed they did.
It is clear that number of conspirators were involved, large
amounts of planning/coordination were required, considerable
"front money" was provided, and while a question for the courts
to decide, it appears that the CDO investor losses were planned
from the start to benefit the co-conspirator hedge fund manager,
who stood no real chance of any loss.
As is frequently the case, this also meets the requirements for
"criminal conspiracy."
http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/conspiracy.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29
Ayup.
Indeed, if two prior felony counts can be sustained in court, the
Goldman-Sachs corporation and the individuals involved may well
qualify for a RICO prosecution with disgorgement of any profits
that resulted. FWIW -- there are also "civil RICO" actions.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/lit08.htm
http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...e9/110mcrm.htm
http://www.monteleonelaw.com/CivilRI...rint020104.pdf
Gota love RICO when taking on a large organization.
What is becoming increasingly evident is that the SEC, other
regulatory agencies [state and federal] and "law enforcement"
[state and federal] had [and has] more than ample justification
to investigate and prosecute. The introduction of yet more
regulations and statutes, that won't be enforced, will accomplish
nothing.
But..if they put the entire management in prison for 5-20 yrs..it will
give a bit of pause to the next nefarious scofflaw...and there are
enough people out there who are guilty of Criminal Fraud in the
industry..that a very very good and widespread example can be made of
them.
Not to mention impoverishing each and everyone of them to get the money
back....
Gunner
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.
This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost