On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:15:45 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Mar 7, 10:50*am, Harry K wrote:
On Mar 6, 10:28*pm, (Don Klipstein) wrote:





In ,
wrote, in something about microprocessor products
being computers:

SNIP to here

Neither krw nor I ever said that a computer needs to include a
microprocessor. *The reverse is what krw claimed, which is to say that
a system that includes a microprocessor is a computer. * Unless
perhaps the microprocessor is being used as a doorstop. * For the
microprocessor to be of any use, it needs to be executing a program
and capable of some kind of input/output. * At that point it is a
computer. *It could be a very simple program only taking in some
serial data, figuring out what the data is telling it to do, then
activating the appropriate output. * But that is just a simpler
version of what your PC is doing.

SNIP a previously quoted mention of a non-microprocessor computer

I'd also point out that today, virtually all current computers do
contain a microprocessor or microcontroller. *Certainly evey one in
today's cars do. *So, why the trip down memory lane? * For the record,
I did google KURTA and KURTA mechanical computer and came up with
zippo.

SNIP a previously quoted bit on microprocessors doing stuff so simple
as "in my words" "arguably" "not actually doing real computer work"

As I said above, if a system has a microprocessor it's a computer.
It could be a simple one, that takes a few inputs and works a few
switches, but it is a computer. * That microprocessor is executing a
program. *Other than that the program is very simple, how is that any
different than a microprocessor operating in a PC? *And you never
answered this question:

How about I write a simple assembly language program that implements a
switch function,
turning a keyboard light on and off, *put it in a flash memory chip,
and replace the bios on my PC with it? *The light is now flashing.
Is my PC no longer a computer just because it's running a very simple
program?

Here's Collins dictionary definition of the word computer:

computer [k=C9=99m=CB=88pju=CB=90t=C9=99]
n
1. (Electronics & Computer Science / Computer Science)
a. *a device, usually electronic, that processes data according to a
set of instructions. The digital computer stores data in discrete
units and performs arithmetical and logical operations at very high
speed. The analog computer has no memory and is slower than the
digital computer but has a continuous rather than a discrete input.
The hybrid computer combines some of the advantages of digital and
analog computers.
b. *(as modifier) computer technology Related prefix cyber-
2. a person who computes or calculates
Collins English Dictionary

And from Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: com=C2=B7put=C2=B7er
Pronunciation: \k=C9=99m-=CB=88py=C3=BC-t=C9=99r\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Date: 1646
: one that computes; specifically : a programmable usually electronic
device that can store, retrieve, and process

Tell us what part of those definitions an 8051 running the dashboard
display in a car would not meet.

* Shorten many lines to a few, such as discernment of a computer from a
calculating machine, and saying that if it has "as-best-as-I-recall" I/O,
RAM and a program and a processor, it is a computer.

* What if the microprocessor is controlling a mere battery charger?
With the only program available to it being the one in its associated
ROM that was put there by the factory?

* Yes, I would concede that it meets a definition of "digital stored
program computer" which is the "usual type of computer". *But to what
extent should a battery charger with program being burned into the same
IC package as the processor be considered a "computer" as opposed to
being a fancy sort of battery charger IC?

* How about if the microprocessor has included within its IC package ROM
(especially one-time-programmable "true ROM") a program that makes it
useful or at least advantageous only as part of a ballast circuit for a
single type or a small number of closely related types of metal halide
lamp or other arc lamp? *To what extent would one want to claim that a
metal halide lamp ballast or a fluorescent lamp ballast is a computer due
to having a stored program and a microprocessor of digital nature and I/O?

* Suppose I invent a microprocessor-based ballast for a specific type of
HID lamp that is an invention by achieving faster warmup without
"excessive" starting/warmup related wear than anything previously
disclosed. *Such invention may have the program implementing means
to-be-disclosed-in-patent-application-should-I-try-to-patent-one to
maximize or even improve-upon-previous-achievements some novel way of
faster warmup, or at least faster warmup of an HID lamp type that
previously patented/patent-applied-for are no good for.
* The patentable improvement could have the burned-into-ROM program
being a patentably novel improved one, at least for a specific lamp type.
The program may be patentably novel by using sensed data and/or a "lamp
thermal model" in a "novel" way, disclosed in the patent application.
This could even be by disclosing in a patent application how a
modification of a "prior art" lamp ballast is an invention by disclosing
how it is inventive by being made suitable for a different lamp in an
inventive way.

* But I have digressed... *Getting back on track, to what extent would /
should one consider a lamp ballast or a battery charger, especially if
more-specialized, to be considered to be a computer if it has a stored
program, RAM, a microprocessor and I/O?

* If a digital microprocessor controlling throttle in an automobile has
inputs both from any user controls and from any sensors other than user
controls, especially if it controls in addition amount of fuel injection
and/or ignition timing, then I would consider that microprocessor, its
program storage means, its likely-existing "memory" elsewhere (likely
RAM), and its inputs and outputs (short of the sensors delivering the
inputs and the devices responding to the outputs) to be a "computer".

* Any comments from here?

*- Don Klipstein )- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sora OT. *When I first signed in I saw someone had said they googled
the Curta Rallye calculator with no hits. *I tried one quick search
and came up with a page of them. *Here is one:

www.rallyracingnews.com/manuals/curtaman.html

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



For the record Harry, what I said was I googled "KURTA" which is
exactly what krw had posted.
^^^
Certainly wasn't me. I think it was "Clare", in defense of his silly idea
that microprocessors aren't computers. I've never heard of the thing.

Sometimes what you think you saw and
what was really there are two different things. Which is why I'm
reluctant to treat self-reported interpretations of things as
establishing fact.

And also for the record, your link doesn't work:

"The page - http://www.google.com/www.rallyracin.../curtaman.html
- does not exist. "