On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:43:07 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 4, 6:27Â*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 04:58:58 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Mar 4, 12:39Â*am, Harry K wrote:
On Mar 3, 11:38Â*am, wrote:

On Mar 3, 1:21Â*pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:

wrote:
I'm quite amazed at how people want to just attribute this to driver
stupidity. Â*In the famous Lexus case the driver was an experienced CA
highway patrol officer who had taken special driving training as part
of his job. Â*I'd be pretty amazed if he didn't try to put the car in
neutral.

Now who is making assumptions? Â*The high performance street driving I took as a
Paramedic did not include any training about run away acceleration. Â*-- Doug

No, and I never assumed it did. Â* But don't you think a CA highway
patrol officer that has received a variety of training, not only in
driving, but in how to handle difficult, stressful, combat situations,
would have the presence of mind to shift into neutral? Â* Yet he did
not during a ride that lasted minutes? Â* Â*Or that not one of the 3
other people in the car thought of it? Â* Â*Is it possible they didn't
try sure. Â* But doesn't this bother you at all, or are you certain to
join Harry in calling the dead cop stupid?

Have a problem with pointing out the truth. Â*The FACT is that the
lexus can be shifted to neutrral under runaway conditions. Â*It has
been proven TWICE and both were cited in this thread.

Show us where what you claim above has been proven. Â* I've seen people
saying that a NORMAL functioning Lexus can be shifted into neutral.
I've seen people report that Toyota has said that the shift linkage is
only mechanical and it can be shifted into neutral while being
driven. Â* Â* Neither of those proves that it's true under runaway
conditions. Â*As I've said before, unless you know the design of the
car and what is linked to what, you are making assumptions unsupported
by the facts.

The FACT is the law requires there be a mechanical way to put a cat
out of gear, and ALL cars with automatic transmissions, to this day,
have a "manual valve" controled by a linkage to do this. The only
automatic car in history that I cannot say for 100% positive Â*had this
feature was the electric shifted Edsel with the buttons in the
steering wheel (made for only 2 years) and the Packard Ultramatic,
which is the only car in history that could NOT be shifted into
neutral at speed.

Both of these had come and gone before automotive safety legislation
caught up with them.

If you have a link supporting that Toyota has tested shifting a Lexus
into neutral on a track going at topspeed with full throttle, I'd be
very happy to see it.

Don't need a test if you understand how the car is built. There is NO
LOCKOUT that can prevent the shifter fom moving to neutral at speed
and yet allow the car to be put in neutral at a stop.

Any mechanical FAILURE that would prevent shifting to neutral at speed
would also prevent going to neutral at a stop. The brake/shifter
interlock only prevents shifting OUT OF PARK without the brake pedal
depressed - and even IF it could control the movement into neutral
fron either drive or reverse (the only options) stepping on the brake
would allow the shifter to be moved.

That would be a start. Â* But then the other component would be that
you would also have to know by design that nothing in the tranny could
prevent it from being shifted, even if not designed to do so
intentionally.

Â*Having had many transmissions apart, including electrically shifted,
electronic controlled units, the only electical or electronic controls
in today's automatics are electrically operated solenoid valves that
control the flow of hydraulic fluid under pressure to the various
clutches and brakes that control the shifting of the planetary gear
sets. There are no electromechanical devices that interface with the
manual valve control which has ULTIMATE CONTROL of the transmission.
NO combination of sticky, faulty, or missapplied solenoids could cause
the transmission to transmit driving force to the wheels with the
manual valve in the neutral position.

Â*I'd want to see exactly what prevents the shift lever
from moving into ANY position under any circumstances. Â*For example,
is there a lock that keeps it from moving into park when the car is
moving? Â* And what determines that, how the mechanism works, etc.
You would need to take apart the trannys from the wrecked cars and do
a complete forensic investigation of the components.

That, when it exists, is in the shifter assembly itself - not the
tranny, and is called a brake/shifter interlock. Requires the brake to
be depressed to put the vehicle into or out of PARK ONLY.



I'm not saying it's likely all the cars could not be shifted, just
that if we jumped to conclusions without ALL the facts, a lot more
people would be dead today. Â* Why do you think it takes so long for
the NTSB to carefully analyze plane crashes instead of saying the
pilot was stupid, he should have been able to land the plane?

Because there is a LOT more affecting an airplane's flight than there
is affecting the operation of a motor vehicle.
Aerodynamics are CRITICAL, as is structural strength and loading -
which can be affected by so MANY different parameters.
A little bit of ice can totally destroy the lifting capability of an
airfoil (particularly the now-common "laminar" airfoils) - and by the
time investigators get there, the ice is long gone.

By the way - I am also building an airplane.



Also note that I'm not saying how the cars are or are not designed or
what caused anything. Â*All I'm saying is that until more
investigations are done and more facts are established, it's premature
to be calling a dead CHP officer, among others, Â*stupid for not being
able to shift the car.

I'd tell him to his face if he were still alive - even if he was
"carrying" There is NO EXCUSE for the death of the Chippy and his
family other than gross stupidity in Â*the face of adversity.





explain it in simple terms for simple people:

The cause of the runaway was Toyota's fault. Â*The deaths were due to
driver error.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

Actually, your whole approach to the problem is remarkably similar to
Toyota's. Â* For years they dismissed reports of both runaway
acceleration and wrecks as driver stupidity instead of doing a
complete investigation before jumping to conclusions.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now you did it. He will want a cite to each and every statement.

Harry K
Like my auto mechanics licence number, my Diploma number and school,
and the registration number for the plane under construction?????
Fat chance!!!