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robobass robobass is offline
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Default Ceramic Cooktop Wiring Advice Needed!


How does Europe always manage to figure out the stupidest possible
way to rig things? (It's a gift, has to be...)


Our electricity is less than ideal, I'll grant. I think that since
we've always had 230v, we've had a lesser need, and therefore have
been less proactive about dealing with increased household energy
needs, than North Americans, whose 120v is simply a joke.

Something to consider is that the typical European kitchen doesn't
consume energy the way an American one does. My German mother-in-law
serves bread and butter, cold cuts, and cheese for most meals. I don't
think they even own a toaster. Also, Europeans (Germans at least),
tend toward small, simple kitchens. If they want to spend money, they
will put it into a big, luxury bathroom, and the kitchen comes last.

As far as heating goes, the instant heat water coil - whether run on
electricity or gas - is the norm for hot water and heating. Also, I
think that gas is a lot more expensive here than in the states, so the
decision to go "all electric" is easy when the costs of bringing in
piped gas will not be recovered for decades.

Over here, if your house is using Propane for heat they don't try
using the 5-gallon/20L barbecue bottles, swapping and refilling would
be a nightmare and a labor time sink. You have a 100 to 500 gallon
tank in the yard (400L - 2,000L) and they don't swap little tanks,
they fill it from a bulk tank truck once or twice a month.

Actually, I think the bottled gas systems I've seen were only for hot
water and cooking. They have electric heaters in the rooms, but we're
talking (where I've seen them) Mediteranean climate, so they don't
need to heat very much. I imagine that proper houses have bigger
tanks, but I'm talking about apartments in old cities, where space is
scarce, and digging up streets to lay gas lines and wire is very
problematic. Even in Cologne, where I live, every time they try to dig
up a patch of street to lay some new sewer line, they invariably
happen upon some Roman relics, and need to give the archaeologists a
half a year to get things in order before the workers can proceed.

And the 5L water heaters are meant for hand washing sinks, not for
washing dishes. They do make small instant electric heaters, but they
take a 40A to 60A @ 240V circuit for one sink or shower at a time, and
even then they are barely adequate - and at the premium price of
electricity for heat over oil or gas, it is insane to boot.... You
want true instant hot water, you have to go gas.

Yes, true. Many Germans (like us) choose not to have a dishwasher,
although it seems to be expected that you have one. I looked at a 230v
electric water heater, but decided it wouldn't be adequate. Those of
us who live in older buildings just don't expect the level of comfort
in the kitchen that Americans take for granted. My neighbors actually
bring hot water from the bathroom to the kitchen in buckets to do
their dishes!

If you have an electric cooktop and oven (or range), you will have a
dedicated healthy circuit for them - they wouldn't try to double it up
on the same circuit with all the lights and convenience outlets.
Having the lights all go out when the main blows is a bad thing.

Well, of course the stove/oven always has a dedicated circuit. We
aren't that negligent!

240/415V Wye 3-phase power would be the smart way to go on
everything, yet you say they aren't in any rush to upgrade....


No, we aren't. At the last owners meeting, they voted to install fibre
optic so they could get more TV channels or HD or something, but when
I mentioned bringing up "Starkstrom" (high voltage) at the same time,
they all sighed (crazy foreigner...).

3-phase is wonderful for running refrigeration and air conditioning
efficiently, and in mild climates Heat Pumps are far more efficient
than resistance heat. Just take air conditioning and run it in
reverse - cool the outdoors and send the heat inside.

Can heat pumps be mated with hot water heating? Don't forget that
forced air is unknown in traditional construction here. Retrofitting
older buildings with ductwork would be a huge undertaking, and hugely
unpopular, since our hot water radiators provide much more comfortable
heating than your forced air furnaces, not to mention that they're
already there. Some new houses do use forced air heating and AC with a
geothermal heat pump, involving a deep bore into the ground. It is
extremely low cost to run, but very expensive to install, even with
new construction. Also, forced air is noisy. My wife doesn't sleep at
all when we visit her sister in Stuttgart, or my mother in Ohio.
Germans like their peace and quiet. Many appliances, even computers,
include a db rating in the advertized specs.

In the end, I wouldn't call the way Europeans construct their
household energy systems "stupid" at all. "Strange" to the eye of an
American for sure, but not stupid, just practical, considering the
available options.