On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 07:51:47 -0800 (PST), robobass
wrote:

Yeah, the cooktop alone is 6.3 KW. That's close to 40 amps right
there, not to mention the oven. This just seems to be the way they do
things here. I am actually in a six story building in a large city. I
have the stove hooked up exactly the way it was when I moved in. I've
never tripped the breaker, even though I have been known to run three
burners and the oven all at once.

400v comes with probably all new construction, and is often run on
large renovation jobs, but that's mainly for heat and hot water. In
many apartments here, you have a "Durchlauferhitzer" which is a
continuous heating tankless system that gives you hot water for the
bathroom as well as for your hot water radiators. A typical unit draws
14KW, so 230v isn't up to the task. In my last flat, we had a gas unit
in the kitchen which provided all heating and hot water.
Interestingly, it is not uncommon to have your 400v wire and your
electric heater in the bathroom, but be left with low voltage (230) in
the kitchen, where you not only have to run your electric range, but
are stuck with a stupid little 5 liter low-pressure electric water
heater to do your dishes. These things are useless! You have to buy a
special three-pipe faucet, which functions poorly, so just when you
get the temperature adjusted properly, you're out of hot water. In my
case, we have central hot water to the bathroom and the radiators, but
not to the kitchen. After looking at my options (no gas or high
voltage available), I elected to run copper from the bathroom to the
kitchen. Sounds crazy? It gets better, In Spain and Italy it is common
to have no gas OR high voltage. Many homes and flats there have a
boiler which runs on bottled gas, so you see little trucks driving
around all day delivering refills. Of course they don't need to heat
the way we do up north, so they aren't using nearly as much fuel.

Well, everyone finds their own way to get things done. My house is in
order, anyway.

How does Europe always manage to figure out the stupidest possible
way to rig things? (It's a gift, has to be...)

Over here, if your house is using Propane for heat they don't try
using the 5-gallon/20L barbecue bottles, swapping and refilling would
be a nightmare and a labor time sink. You have a 100 to 500 gallon
tank in the yard (400L - 2,000L) and they don't swap little tanks,
they fill it from a bulk tank truck once or twice a month.

And the 5L water heaters are meant for hand washing sinks, not for
washing dishes. They do make small instant electric heaters, but they
take a 40A to 60A @ 240V circuit for one sink or shower at a time, and
even then they are barely adequate - and at the premium price of
electricity for heat over oil or gas, it is insane to boot.... You
want true instant hot water, you have to go gas.

If you have an electric cooktop and oven (or range), you will have a
dedicated healthy circuit for them - they wouldn't try to double it up
on the same circuit with all the lights and convenience outlets.
Having the lights all go out when the main blows is a bad thing.

240/415V Wye 3-phase power would be the smart way to go on
everything, yet you say they aren't in any rush to upgrade....

3-phase is wonderful for running refrigeration and air conditioning
efficiently, and in mild climates Heat Pumps are far more efficient
than resistance heat. Just take air conditioning and run it in
reverse - cool the outdoors and send the heat inside.

That's the only dumb thing we do over here in the US - it would be
either 120/240V Open Delta 3-phase (third leg at 190V/ground and
usable for motor loads only) or 120/208V Wye 3-phase (all three phases
can be used for branch circuits) - and it is rare when you can get
either one for residential.

-- Bruce --