On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:42:38 -0800, Hawke
wrote:


Oh yeah, the good old days of unlimited immigration. Those were the days
weren't they? I have the anti immigration views I have exactly because
it's not the old days. Back then we had a continent underpopulated and
bringing in more people made sense. Not any more. We're full up as far
as I'm concerned. In fact, I think we're already overpopulated, which is
the only reason why I'm anti immigration. If we had 130 million I would
think differently. I think a cap of 300 million is a good idea. I don't
see much chance of that happening any time soon though.

You think!

But apparently a great many other people do not think the way that you
do. After all the Mexicans, particularly, are mostly in this country
to earn money. Which is not the point of the discussion at all. The
point is that the Mexicans can and do get jobs and make more money
then they can in Mexico.... In other words a large segment of the
people who have jobs to be done are quite happy to have immigrant
labour do them.

What do you expect? If you can get a job done and pay half what it
normally would cost you wouldn't you take advantage of that? Mexicans
get work because they work for half price, you pay no taxes for them,
and they get no benefits. The employer wins all around. The Mexican
worker and the American who would have had the job not so much. It's
simple exploitation.

Exactly my point except for one thing. It is "exploitation" on one
part but "opportunity knocking" on the other. While the Employer may
think he is exploiting the worker the Worker is equally as happy
knowing that he is ripping off the employer - "imagine, a dollar an
hour... I was making a dollar a day back home."




I suggest that just exactly like illegal drugs, as long as there is a
market someone will fill the demand. As long as you offer a job that a
Mexican can fill, Mexicans will come to fill it. Imagine the effect of
a federal law making it a crime to employ an illegal worker with a
mandatory jail sentence - say 2 years in the slammer. How many illegal
workers would you find here? But you don't see the law, do you? So is
there any real pressure on elected officials to actually stop illegal
immigration, as apposed to taking some visible but generally
non-effective action?

They aren't trying to stop illegal immigration because those workers are
what makes a lot of businesses a lot more in profits. Those same
businesses lobby the government to be lax about not getting rid of the
Mexicans. It works very well for the employers and no one else.

I was living in S. California some 40 years ago when some bright young
politician decided that the migratory Mexican labour was Bad! So they
were banned. The poor folks from L.A. county would be glad of gainful
employment and would gladly pick the peas and harvest the tomatoes.
The first day quite a few turned out; the second, fewer; the third day
they started frantically trying to locate some Mexicans to import.

Seems that the Poor Folks were making a dollar a day more picking
vegetables then they had been getting on the dole and decided that
they would rather lay in bed then make the extra dollar.


There are ways to compete if you have the highest labor costs. Germany
does very well and pays well too. One way is to let the other countries
produce the simple stuff that doesn't pay to make. We need to produce
the high value, difficult to make stuff, and the creative things, plus
food. We just need to get smart and start planning ahead and forget
about letting the market be our guide. That is what we have done for the
last 30 years and all the country has done is decline by doing that. I'm
for changing before we're desperate. And we're close to that now.

Hawke

Germany does not "do very well". They do just about the same as the
U.S. In fact there was an item in the news just the other day saying
that the German Finance Minister told the German government that they
had to cut costs - as a result of the financial crash the German
government could not go on with a deficit budget. Something that the
U.S. apparently hasn't faced up to as yet.

Almost every country is doing poorly right now and Germany is facing
it's troubles too but as a rule Germany has done as well or better than
any other country economically. Have they spent more than they have
taken in? Is the pope a catholic? With the economic problems every
country has had a loss of revenue but the expenses have not declined. Is
that a problem for Germany? Sure, but they are addressing it. Lucky for
them they haven't started two wars like they did in 1939, or like we
have done right no or they would be as bad off as us. They learned their
from their mistake. We haven't.


And while you are extolling Germany google on "guest worker". Germany
had mobs of so called "guest workers", immigrants from Turkey mainly,
who came to Germany for the high paying jobs and didn't want to leave.
And what did the guest workers do? Worked in the Mercedes and
Volkswagen factories - taking the jobs that should have been for the
German Worker. At least that is what the German Labour Unions said.

The Turks are to Germany what the Mexicans are to the U.S. They made the
same mistake of letting in too many foreigners. The difference is they
aren't doing that any more. Can't say that about us. Their population
isn't growing because of foreign inflows. Our population is only growing
because of letting in more people. Say but you will but I think Germany
is doing better than we are and we are supposed to be the world's
leader. The thing is I have seen this country in a state of decline for
the last 30 years. That tells me we have been on the wrong path. The
conservative path is what we have been following and it is leading us to
becoming a declining power. I think we better quit it pretty soon or
we'll be a much weaker country and a much poorer one than we already
are. We owe more money than anyone. When you go bankrupt you can't fight
wars. We're in two wars we can't afford to fight. How about cutting
expenses by not doing that?

Hawke

Hawke, you keep turning things into some sort of political discussion.
I, on the other hand, believe that for all practical purposes
politicians are all painted the same color - opportunist.

Review the political ranks and you find large numbers who have never
actually worked; others, that should probably be in jail - Kennedy
springs to mind here - and they are pretty evenly dispersed through
out all the parties. Democratic politics, historically, in
Massachusetts was crooked - Curley ran for election while physically
in jail - and won. The Chicago political machine is ????
Tammany Hall was Democratic...

I have read that the underlying cause of the Great American Crash was
the Fanny May underwriting of housing loans to people that a thinking
man wouldn't loan a nickel. There were even individuals who resigned
in protest over the (practically) unsecured loans but management was
determined that everyone should be able to get a home loan.

This was the republicans who were so enthusiastic that poor folks
should be able to get a loan?

I could go on but why bother. The people ultimately responsible for
the debacle are the public. After all they elected the scoundrels and
never said a word while they were looting the country. In fact the
majority gleefully followed along with the crowd. Then the crash and
everyone is standing there pointing the finger - He did it! No him!
The other guy! Not me!

Regards,

J.B.