J. Clarke said:

Greg G. wrote:
In that case we've been Socialists for years: Roads and highways,
police, fire departments, the military, Coast Guard, water treatment
plants, NASA, the judicial circuits, schools, parks, community power
consortiums... The things people need to live.

People need NASA to live? Do tell.

Actually, and you'll love this, it can be argued that we do - in the
sense that knowledge gained and research done by and through NASA has
affected our lives in ways that are far reaching and subtle. There
are a number of products on the market whose development was greatly
accelerated by and that are a direct by-product of NASA research. I'd
like to see us make advancements into space even if only to find more
planets to rape, pillage and dump our garbage on. We're running out of
room and resources here, unless you consider every square mile of dry
land seething with humans to the exclusion of all else to be a
desirable situation. Do you believe the Hubble produces some
interesting results? Try a manned moon base just across the
transition zone on the dark side of the moon. The low gravity and lack
of atmosphere and suspended contaminants lends itself to a broad
variety of scientific research projects.

But here is another reason that should satisfy the chickenhawks. Since
the dawn of the nuclear age we have had reasonably plentiful supplies
of Helium-3. A light isotope of Helium not normally occurring in much
quantity on earth naturally, it is a by product of producing tritium.
He3 is used in a variety of medical, oil and gas detection, and low
temperature quantum physics research facilities at home and abroad.
Since 9/11 the supplies of He3 have been outstripped due to the
massive proliferation of neutron detectors used to detect the movement
of plutonium and other radioactive materials. The price has gone from
$100-$200 liter to $1300-$1600 per liter and sales overseas are on a
DOE/DHS approved basis - the majority of the 60,000 liters/annum being
reserved by the DOE for research projects which are funded by "certain
specific agencies of the US government." Researchers around the world
have invested massive capitol into building facilities, such as the
$1.3 billion J-PARC in Japan, which now cannot be supplied with the
needed He3. Even dilution refrigerator manufactures cannot obtain
sufficient supplies to continue production. It is also used during the
MRI process, to touch on the subject of another current thread.

Guess what we've found in substantially higher quantities compared to
the earth on and around the moon as a by-product of the sun's
radiation and solar winds? Helium-3. We'll catch them evil-doers now.

Of course, I'm dismissing transportation and injecting ample sarcasm,
but you get the idea...


The founders carefully considered what the government should pay for and
listed it in the Constitution. There is nothing there about the government
paying for medical treatment. And schools, police, and fire departments are
not funded by the national government, nor are parks. I don't know what a
"community power consortium" is but there is certainly no Federally funded
power grid.

Things have changed quite a bit since the founders wrote the
Constitution. While I'm not going to even suggest that we usurp the
basic tenets of that document, this is not the same world that existed
in 1789. I believe they left sufficient wiggle room for adaptation. As
for what is not funded by the Federal government, I know quite a few
municipalities that would freak (and fold) if you told them Federal
funds were no longer available. The Federal government disburses money
to areas in need based upon needs and census. There are also numerous
Federal programs and grants which promote development of various civil
infrastructure needs.

Perhaps a confusing phrase, but community power consortiums are power
boards and utilities which are owned by local governments, and thus
the people who live there, and sell power, water, sewage, gas, and
garbage service to the residents in lieu of private power/utility/gas
companies. One such example would be from Newt Gingrich's launch pad
in extremely "conservative" Marietta, GA. The Marietta Board of Lights
and Water has been an extremely successful publicly owned municipal
purveyor of services since 1906. They buy power from the grid at
competitive rates and sell to citizens at below GA Power and Cobb EMC
rates. The service is better as well as the locals know every power
pole, water pipe and transformer in their city - and have to face
their irate neighbors if service lapses.

And I do believe that the TVA, among others, qualifies as a "Federally
funded power grid." They are, in fact, a prime link in the management
of the US power grid. The TVA is one of the largest producers of
electricity in the United States and acts as a regional power grid
reliability coordinator. Most of the nation's major hydropower systems
are federally managed. It's the coal, petrochemical and nuclear plants
which are primarily private.


Here is an interesting set of charts for your edification:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezr...20addition.pdf

And the government paying for it is going to alter those charts in what way?

Controlling costs, believe it or not. Removing the impetus for fraud
and unnecessary tests in order to pad bills, stuffing hospital beds to
maintain a given profit margin, purchasing drugs at competitive rates.
Canadians can purchase a script for Liptor for $33 and yet those in
the US pay anywhere from $125 to $334. The final effect would be
remove thousands of outstretched hands that expect a cut of the cash
which flows through the health care system as it stands - which is the
root cause of much of the objections heard today. Everything else is
ginned up hysteria promoted by those who fear losing their cash cow.
Health care is not an option - you cannot simply decide to forgo a
purchase because you can't afford it as you can a new car or a
tablesaw - unless death is a valid option for you. It is a captive
market controlled by what is proving to be rank profiteers.

Additionally, acrimony aside, contrary to the private system a
government run system allows citizens to have input as to what and how
these things are run. Don't like the way things operate? You have the
option of voting the incompetents out of office. Ever try that with a
hospital, HMO, insurance company, or medical lab? Ha! **** and moan
too much and security will toss you're ass out in the street and the
insurance company will drop your coverage, if they haven't already
refused coverage for a given procedure. Currently, insurance companies
are refusing to cover people who have headaches, mild depression, and
other routine medical ailments. Commonplace operations that are so
pedestrian that they've been performed on kitchen tables in the 1800s
are now priced so high that victims have to sell their homes, enter
bankruptcy, leech from their children just to pay the bills. The bulk
of medical care is not MRIs and brain surgeries - they are common
ailments that demand no unusual skills or treatment techniques.
Removing a bullet used to cost a few chickens and a basket of apples -
drag that into your local hospital and see how far you get...

FWIW,

Greg G.