Mike -

I'll take a bow on behalf of the designer who sent back a detailed response
almost as long as your original post - few of the comments (in this case)
were mine ....

As for the aligned handles on the website - that's probably Murphy's work...
if a "random" event could take place which would suggest a design feature -
it'll happen in photography. We'll make a note of it.... Then too, it's
possible that the nut on one screw was fixed after handle alignment, or
shimmed out of a recess... rotating the nut should provide 90 degrees of
adjustment, with finer adjustment (less than 90) coming from shims....

Chain cover - offer stands.... the kit includes end caps (which you don't
need)...the cut extrusion won't cost us too much - and we'll put it in with
your next order....I can try and do it today- but your order's probably
packed and in the truck by now....

The shares'll have to wait for at least one more generation - not happening
this one!

Cheers -

Rob Lee







"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
. com...
Rob,

Thanks very much for the detailed response. As always, the level of
interaction you have with your customers is exceptional.

A few notes regarding the comments you provided:

1) Regarding the installation of the barrel nuts in for the rear jaw
mounting bolts. I found it quite easy to simply use a screw driver in the
slot on the bottom of the nut and hold in lower than the bolt position. I
had a small flashlight on the ground illuminating the area, so I could see
the protruding bolt end, and then by pushing the bolt against the nut, I
could simply slowly raise the nut and feel the bolt slide into the tapered
recess. It actually wasn't that hard, other than having to lay on the
floor
hehe. When I had the paper in the hole, I found that the spring back
effect
actually made it harder to make small changes in height to the nut
position.

2) Regarding the alignment of the two screw handles. In your website
picture you show the handles perfectly aligned and parallel. Is this only
achieved because you may have used the maximum spacing? I knew enough not
to assume that they would automatcially come out that way, but I didn't
see
any mention of the alignment being a contraint of the system. I can think
of at least one situation where having the handles aligned would be
necessary - if you have a bank of drawers or a cabinet door opening at the
end of the bench. Having both handles horizontal would be needed to open
these. I admit I haven't seen this too much, but it's a thought. I guess
I
will have to live with the handles as they came out.

3). Regarding the chain cover. I agree with you that the scratching of
the
finish was my goof. I won't ask for a replacement. If it bothers me too
much in the future I'll just buy one of your cover kits. Thanks for the
offer, though. As for being overkill to warn against scratching the
cover,
I don't think that's the case. You already warn against deforming it in
the
hacksawing process, so adding a line "deforming and/or marring the finish"
doesn't seem too big a deal. Since this is the part of the vise that
bears
your logo and is the most visible part of the vise (other than the
handles,
I suppose), it would be good to have customers avoid the bonehead result
that I managed to do to my vise.

4) My wife says I've spent so much money at your website that I should
own
stock in the company. Any plans to go public??


I really do appreciate the responsiveness you gave me and the obvious
attention to even the smallest customer concerns that you have. I already
placed another order at your website yesterday, so obviously you aren't
going to lose my patronage.

Best regards,

Mike Logman

--

There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.


"Robin Lee" wrote in message
.. .
Hi -

Answers to your comments are interspersed below! (cut and pasted from
the
comments I received from our R&D group- note that there's always a bit
of
a
"defensive" slant to a designer's response Many of your comments and
suggestions may help others in the future!

Cheers -

Rob Lee



"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
om...
Hi everyone,

I just finished installing the Veritas twin-screw vise on my workbench
(an
exact copy of Sam Allen's joiner's bench from his workbench book) and
thought I'd write up my experience.

Things went fairly smoothly, but not without some hiccups.

First, the instructions are quite detailed and as many of you might
have
heard before, the warning on the front page to not deviate from the
instructions are wise and I followed them for the most part. Also,
the
materials for the vise were MOSTLY of very high quality, especially
the
screws themselves, which I feel is the most important thing. All the
parts
were there (which is good, since I bought this about 3 months ago), so
I
was
set to go.

I used hard maple for the jaws, and made them up at 2" thick, 7" tall,
and
24" wide (the width of my bench). It was important to figure out the
minimum height of the jaws to accomodate the bench thickness and
hardware,
but the instructions made this clear and not difficult. The next step
was
to figure out the screw spacing and to adjust the length of the
bicycle
chain. I used 14 5/8", so I had to remove 6 links from the chain.
The
instructions say to file the pins down, but I found this to be
extremely
slow going, so I used my bench grinder, which worked fine. I did have
to
use a center punch to drive the pins out, which took a little more
effort
than the instructions made it out to be. Also, the link supplied with
the
chain to connect the two ends had the spring-clip alread attached. I
don't
really see why Lee Valley sent it this way, and I would have rather
had
it
separate so as to avoid having to screw with the clip, and possibly
bending
it (which I did slightly) removing it from the link pins.

They are packaged this way to help prevent loss - since they are very
small
on their own.


Once the chain was set, the next step was laying out and drilling
holes
through the jaws for the screws and other parts. I took my time here,
and
was glad because everything went together fine the first try. I won't
really get into this except to say that having a good drill press with
a
large stroke was a big advantage. Also, a few steps here could've
contained
some more hints regarding placement of clamps, etc.

Throughout the intructions, hints are given in most cases where they
apply
to all or most users - but there are so many different ways to clamp
and
drill, it would be a bit like chasing one's tail to try and anticipate
all
possible scenarios and provide hints for them. Every woodworker knows
their
own shop and equipment best.

I had to reposition my
clamps a few times to get clearance on my drill press. Also, the
instructions have you install the screw nuts onto the rear jaws before
drilling the bolt mounting holes. This didn't make much sense,
because
you
have to drill counterbores in the inside face of the rear jaw, so you
have
to take the nuts off to lay the jaw flat on the drill press table.

It's quite true that the process would be a bit simpler in this
customer's
case to install the nuts after the rear jaw in is place. But since there
are
three different methods to attach the rear jaw outlined, the
instructions
would be considerably more complicated to achieve the same end result.
Ordering the instructions in this way would only mean the user could
avoid
using a couple of spacer blocks under the jaw when drilling the bolt
holes.



After the holes were drilled through the faces of the jaws, and the
mounting
holes for the rear jaw were in place, it was necessary to transfer the
holes
to the end of the bench in order to drill for the rear jaw mounting
bolts.
The rear jaw is attached with barrel bolts placed in cross-drilled
holes
from the bottom of the bench. I found it pretty tricky to get the
rear
jaw
in position, but ended up clamping it across the width of the bench,
across
the seam where the bench and rear jaw met.

There is a very simple method that could be used to clamp the rear jaw
in
position - as used by our own bench assemblers. The instructions could
be
changed to add this tip. (RL note - will see that this gets added...)

The idea was to have a small
amount of the rear jaw above the bench surface, so you can plane it
down
even after you install it. Anyway, it worked out alright. The next
step
was to drill the crossing holes for the barell bolts. Since my bench
was
already constructed, I had to lay on the floor to do this, which
could've
been more comfortable. If you have the opportunity to install this
to
your
benchtop with the top upside down on some supports, I would recommend
it,
not only for comfort, but for the increased accuracy you're sure to
hae.

The instructions don't tell the customer not to flip the benchtop uspide
down but don't suggest it either. This could be another tip to add so
long
as we also provide a caution about getting help and not wrecking one's
back.

I made the jig for locating the crossing holes, but I got one wrong
slightly
and had to drill an overlapping hole. It didn't seem to affect the
mounting
of the rear jaw at all. One more caveat here, the instructions say to
put
some crumpled paper in the hole for the barrel bolts to act as a
spring
in
aligning them with the bolts. Perhaps it was assumed that the
benchtop
would be upside down, but I found this to be more of a hassle than a
benefit.

This tip works in both orientations. The hole for the dowel nut will
almost
always be deeper than it really needs to be. If the top is upseide
down,
then the nuts can be pushed against the paper until they are lined up
and
then they sit there until the bolt coes through to engage them. If
right
side up, the user nees to hold the nuts in place with a nail or a dowel
or
something. The paper then gives something to push against intead of
essentially having to hold the nut in exactly the right position in
mid-air;
which I can say from experience is not easy. I didn't come up with this
tip
but I have installed these nuts both ways and found the tip to be quite
useful.

So, now the rear jaw was installed after quite a bit of effort (at
least
that's what my back was telling me). Next was the front jaw. In
order
to
install this, I had to drill clearance holes through the upper end
cross
braces of my bench base. Because I had already mounted the rear jaw,
this
meant drilling from the inside of the base outward (or removing the
rear
jaw, which I wasn't going to do). Let's just say that laying
contorted
on
the floor, holding a cordless drill and drilling 1.5" holes through
1.5"
wood is not fun. Happily, I got the holes lined up just right the
first
try.

I checked Sam Allen's book and it is shown in a diagram (p. 32) to drill
the
upper cross brace for screw clearance with the Veritas twin screw vise.
In
my view, this should not be recommended. It is, as the customer found,
difficult to do and it would probably significantly weaken the
structural
member in question. Perhaps we should include a caution in the
catalogue
copy and the instructions that the vise should be installed only a bench
with adequate overhang or otherwise with clearance for the screws where
it
needs to be.


After that, the screws are installed, with the chain in place, and
screwed
in by hand until they are holding the front jaw in place against the
rear
jaw. After aligning the tops and sides of the jaws, the thrust plates
are
attached with lag bolts and washers. This is where my first real
gripe
with
the vise hardware comes up. The instructions DO say to not
overtighten
the
bolts, so I guess I should've been warned. Even so, I managed to
break
the
head off one of the bolts! I was ticked off, because I had read the
instructions and was consciously not using very much force. I was
getting
a
firm fit, to be sure, but "overtight"? I don't think so. So, my
question
to
Lee Valley is, why don't you include better bolts that aren't made of
cheap
material?

RL - we'll test a bunch of bolts - but this could be an isolated
problem...though I've snapped the heads off lag bolts (used in cedar!)
before...

In fact, I think you should include the BEST bolts that you can
find. I'm not sure how the lack of one of the bolts on the thrust
plate
will have in the long run, but it seemed to be holding, so I proceeded
ahead. If anyone has any insight here, it would be appreciated.

The designer assures me that this will not be a problem....

Another gripe I have is that there weren't any instructions on how to
get
the vise handles to line up parallel to each other. I tried to
install
the
chain so that they would be that way, but by the time I had hand
tightened
the screws up to the front jaw, and tightened them down in order to
install
the thrust plates, they had become out of alignment. I couldn't
figure
out
any way to adjust them, so hopefully Robin Lee is reading this and can
expla
in how this is done.

The alignment of the handles to each other is a function of the
orientation
of each "Tee" in relation to the screw it's connected to and cannot be
changed. The product has always had this constraint. It may or may
not
be
made to be aligned but this would certainly add cost and complexity.
(RL -
while aesthetically pleasing to some, I'd actually prefer them to be at
90
degrees to each other....)

I know I've seen many pictures of the vise on benches
with the handles perfectly parallel, so it must be possible. I'm sure
everyone that installs the vise would want their handles aligned, so
why
there isn't instructions regarding this I really don't understand.

Ok, now that the jaws were installed, the cover was ready to go on.
The
cover consists of two half-round end caps and a center aluminum
section.
Because I had shorted the chain and had a smaller screw separation, I
had
to
shorten the cover in order for it to fit between the screw mechanisms.
The
instructions say that a hacksaw can be used, and that's true and what
I
did.
All I can say is, I'm not that proficient at cutting curved pieces of
metal
in straight lines with the hacksaw. I did have the idea (probably not
novel, I'm sure) of making shallow cuts on either side of the cover,
and
then cutting down to the face on both sides at the same time, so at
least
I
ended up with a fairly straight edge. Overall, however I was pretty
frustrated by this. I didn't realize how fragile the finish on the
cover
was, and the initial hacksawing I did was with it held by hand on the
bench
top. This resulted in a very scratched finish, which pretty much
sucks.
I
wish the instructions would have warned me about this.

RL - Mike - We'd be glad to cut and send you another one (it'll bug you
forever)...but, in all fairness, that's your goof !! Just email me your
address, and the length.... we'll add a note to the instructions too,
but
it's overkill.....

Even more, however, I
wish Lee Valley would just have a question when you order the vise as
to
the
size of the cover you need and have it precut for you. For the price
of
the
vise, I think this is a reasonable request. At any rate, I got the
cover
in
place, albeit pretty well scratched up.

RL - the other choice would be to say the vise is 24" wide - change it
your
own risk... Again - I understand what you're saying, but it would be
costly, and impractical to do. Significant numers of these vises are
sold
in
retail locations. The design of the endcaps does provide for some amount
of
overlap to cover an irregular cut...

So, the final chapter (I didn't realize how long winded this was going
to
be) was installing the handles. I only mention this because I ran
into
another example of cheap hardware. The screws provided to attach the
handle
end caps to the handles were square drive #8 1-1/4" (maybe 1-1/2"?)
wood
screws. I drilled pilot holes were the instructions, and set my
drill's
adjustable torque to 10 (out of 20), which considering the handles are
hardwood, should have been fine. Well, as you might have guessed, I
broke
the head off one of the screws. Luckily I have a supply of panhead
coarse
thread pocket hole screws, and one of these worked fine to replace the
broken screw. But, it just illustrates the point that some of the
hardware
was not of the best quality in the kit.

Again - we'll have a look...

I did put the vise through it's paces briefly after the install was
finished
and I have to say that the vise is GREAT! I was extremely impressed
with
how much clamping force I could generate. I tried holding a big panel
in
place with bench dogs across the full vise width, and it worked
wonderfully.
I also clamped a 10" wide board vertically in the vise (as if to cut
dovetails or something), and it also worked just as I had hoped. I
can't
wait to actually use it on my upcoming projects.

So, in summary, I will have to give the vise a score of maybe 8.5/10,
due
to
the small issues I have with some of the components. I admit that the
problems could have been avoided, but I feel I was using a reasonable
amount
of caution and just got stuck by having a few bad parts. I just hope
the
lack of one of the thrust plate bolts doesn't mess me up in the
future.

I hope this has been useful for anyone considering this vise. I would
definitely buy it again, so that might be the most telling thing of
all.

Thanks too, for the comments....every time we get suggestions, it's an
opportunity to improve...

Cheers -

Rob Lee



Mike