On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 01:28:43 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009 00:25:02 -0400, "Buerste"
wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 06:51:09 -0400, "Buerste" wrote:
finger from a broken band saw 20 years ago.
You qualified with a freaking .22? Is that what you are going to be
carrying on the street?
Sigh...Im going to have to bitch slap you.
SLAPPPPP!!!!!
You should know better than that. You run what you carry!!!
If you want to shoot a target gun, go to a target match.
If you are going to shoot a bad guy, you had best be shooting with great
regularity the gun you shoot the sumbitch with.
If you shoot him with that 22..the chances are good he is going to take
all 10 hits, pull it away from you, beat your brains loose, stuff it up
your ass, then walk off and die 3 blocks away.
Damn dude!!
Isnt that thumbrest a bitch shooting lefthanded...chuckle
Gunner
.22s are cheap...so am I. I don't have a carry piece, every pistol I have
is huge. I guess I need a new one. I've been waiting for Roger to die so
I
can have his Detonics
Huge? Define "huge"
THis is the one I usually have tucked away on my person....
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=138867776
It WILL need some TLC out of the box. 99.9% of them were flakey as
shipped, but cleaned and tuned up very very nicely. Maybe 45 minutes
work when not familiar with it. Double action only, and very adequate
out to 20 yrds or more. They are smaller than a PPK..so tuck away
nicely. No sharp edges either.
They do kick. Sharp and savagely Im told. Shrug..Ive shot mine for years
and dont even notice. 5 in the mag, one in the chamber. I can at 7 yrds
(2 weeks ago) put all 6 in the skull of a 1/2 sized b-70 in 1.9 seconds.
So they are very controllable.
Another good choice would be a good used Colt Detective Special, with a
load of P+ 125gr JHPs. (Gold Dots)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=138927936
A very fine weapon and one Ive carried for years.
Both are small enough with enough payload to convice the bad guy that he
****ed up.
Ask yourself if you want a wheel gun or a self loader..then drop me an
email and Id be happy to work you up a list and sources.
Gunner
The smallest pistol I have is my XD-9 Tactical. For carry, I'd want
something like a S&W Airweight hammerless .38, something that I won't need a
gun bearer, or I wont habitually have it with me.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=138722602
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=138841978
I encourage you to rent or borrow an airweight to try before you buy.
You might have no problem at all with it but some find them quite
uncomfortable to shoot. Not that discomfort matters in an SD sit, but
proficiency requires periodic practice and practice won't happen with
a piece that hurts to shoot. Tolerance of recoil and ability to manage
it seems to vary a lot from person to person, and this isn't tightly
coupled to either gender or physical size. It is what it is. Gunner
can manage a pocket .45 with no discomfort and acceptable claimed
accuracy. Perhaps you could too. My point is merely that you must
discover what works for you.
My casual pocket carry is the microscopic Ruger LCP, very similar to
the KelTec 3AT. Both are .380ACP. Gunner scoffs .380ACP as a wimpy
round which it certainly is compared to some others, but shot
placement counts considerably more than caliber and SD is a
close-range matter by definition of civilian rules of engagement. Your
safety depends upon what works for you nevermind what works for
Gunner, me or anyone else.
My "serious" carry, for when I ever might want a serious carry as in
expecting trouble, is a Para Ordnance Carry 9 I found used in tits
condx. It's heavier than an airweight wheelgun but it's a
singlestacker so it's thin and easy to pack. It's enjoyable to shoot
and amazingly accurate. I enjoyed shooting it today. Not cheap, but
that shouldn't be an issue for you.
Pay no attention to those who preach caliber as in bigger is better, a
real man carries a real gun and such swaggerwide macho foolishness.
Shot placement counts considerably more than caliber. The best
caliber for you is the largest caliber you can shoot well and will
have at hand when you need it.
I'm comfortable and competent with .357Mag, .45ACP and .40S&W in
suitably-sized pieces but my carry choices are the very pocketable
Ruger LCP in .380 and the ParaOrdnance Carry9 in 9mmp. YMMV.
See if you can find a Star BM
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/C...Model%20BM.htm
They are my favorite 9mm of all times. Slightly smaller than a Colt
Commander, yet fill the hand well. And Ive got big hands.
It certainly is head and hands more effective than a .380, particularly
with a decent combat bullet like the Gold Dot, etc etc.
The weapon isnt made anymore but they have been going for around $200 at
the gun shows for years. I have several and often have one tucked away
in my gear when out camping etc etc for plinking, camp defense and
varmints. It feels like a full sized Govt model 45 in grip, yet is
light and handy.
Now about your comments about "caliber as in bigger is better, a
real man carries a real gun and such swaggerwide macho foolishness".
Ive seen far too many bad guys eat up an entire magazine of small ammo
like the .380, break/stab/beat/butcher the shooter and then walk off to
die some distance away. Even GOOD antipersonel ammo.
You forget I was a multiple tour combat vet, a deputy sherriff and
whatnot for most of my life. I shot people, Ive been shot, Ive been
around far too many gunfights to find any joy in them..and its the BIG
bullets that end them quickly. Hence my normal carry of .41/44/45
caliber arms. I dont want to have to shoot the bad guy to dollrags. I
want to shoot him once ..maybe twice and then scan for his buddies.
Im not even a big fan of 9mm Para. Ive seen far far too many people take
multiple hits and return fire. I dont want to get shot at, let alone
hit. I hurt even today from the rounds I couldnt duck over the years.
Not something I talk about much ..real life..but..shrug.
I consider a hot .38 special with a decent expanding slug to be the
minumum caliber for dealing with bad guys. Minimum. Effective stopping
power starts at .357 Mag with 125gr JHPs and go up from there..in MY
opinion..and backed by extensive testing, real life shootings etc etc
Others may claim the 9mm with a decent expanding 115gr JHP works. And
again in my experience..it does, with multiple shots to center of mass.
A security guard friend of mine..back in the early 90s, was shot 3
times, center of mass with a 9mm. He ran into a guy breaking into an oil
company building while on patrol..approached the gentleman..and the guy
simply shot him. Randy then beat the guy to death with his simple
nightstick. Crushed his skull, broke his shoulder(s) etc etc. He had
indeed been shot. And the rounds simply didnt stop him. He called into
dispatch, asked for the cops and medical aid and they all arrived about
15 minutes later. Randy was starting to get woosy and light headed from
blood loss. He was treated and released 9 days later. And the .380 is
not as good a stopper as the 9mm
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aast9mmv380a.htm
I can tell you story after story of such shootings. Thats why the cops
have all dropped the 9mm as a duty round. In the 70s, they got away
from the .357 Mag and went to the big mag 9mms. And they were getting
their **** blown away regularly. The 9mm was far far worse a stopper
than was a decent 357 with a 125gr JHP. But the Wonder 9 held more. Big
****ing deal. If you shot the guy 2-3 times with the Wonder 9..and he
didnt beat you to death with your own gun, you lived.
Years ago, I had something to do with the firearms publishing
business..as an author and co author. Handloader, Gun Tests etc etc.
And even then it was obvious that the 9mm Short/Kurtz/380 was a
cartridge of last resort. Far far too many meatbags were living through
being shot multiple times with them. They may be fun, they may be
comforting...but they dont stop the bad guys worth a ****. It will kill
them..but after they have beaten you to death.
Here is some info:
General Julian Hatcher, a noted forensic pathologist, in the early
1900’s developed a good formula to determine the theoretical stopping
power of a firearm cartridge. His formula has withstood the test of time
and validation from other studies and data related to stopping power.
You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the
most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns
in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for
the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that
don’t make a value of at least 50, should not considered for
self-defense. If the rating of your handgun cartridge is under 30, it
only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher
Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance.
Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time.
Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating
..45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1
..45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7
..44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3
*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8
..44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6
*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5
..41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54
*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80
10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3
10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1
..40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4
..40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4
..38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7
*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7
**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7
**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5
..357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6
..357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2
9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3
9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9
..380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3
..32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1
..25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7
..22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2
* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets
if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the
bullet.
* .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel.
Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.
The BEST loading in the .380 is the 95gr Silver Tip/Gold DOT..and it in
real life..gets a 22.5.
And trust me...the bad guy seldom ever stands still and allows you to
pick your first, second and third shots. You shoot him where you can,
and hope the bullet gets to someplace important.
The .380 is a decent "Im never going to shoot anyone but I feel
comfortable carrying it" handgun. And frankly..thats all its really
good for.
Heads up.. when shooting the bad guy.. you want your 1st center of mass
shot to STOP the mother****er. You dont want to be ****ing around,
plinking his ass, because he may not go down, no matter how many times
you shoot him with a poodle shooter and then he may get ****ed off and
beats you to death with whatever is handy. Im aware of a guy who was
shot 6 times with a 9mm by a deputy and nearly killed the deputy with a
shovel. ****ed the deputy up so bad he was retired on full disability.
And the guy is still doing 25-life in prison. And the deputy has been in
a wheel chair for 11 yrs so far. Writes software. And drinks a lot.
Now the big question is...what is the minimum 1 stop cartridge? 9mm?
38? 357? .40? .44? .45?
The best 1 stop round is a load of #4 buck from a 12ga. Followed by a
12ga slug. Or a decent sized rifle bullet with a nice hollowpoint or
soft point.
I have several of them around the homestead.
But I'll be using a handgun of at LEAST .357 Mag while Im scooting my
ass to get a real 1 shot stopper.
I own a fair number of handguns.."several"...which is close to "a bunch"
and I dont consider anything under .357 Magnum with the excellent
Remington 125gr JHP to be suitible for self defense when your life or
the life of another is on the line NOW. I dont own a .40. Not yet. I
have one on the way as a "lifetime loaner". Ill give you a heads up on
its effectiveness, accuracy etc in 6 months..after Ive personally rung
it out on paper and critters and found out what it will do. Reports
say its a good un. Shrug
In the meantime....
I will always use .357, .41 Mag, .44 Special or .45 ACP to defend my
life and the life of others. Or a shotgun/rifle. Smaller calibers may
or may not stop the guy with the first round..usually a number of rounds
wont stop the bad guy ..... Shrug..and frankly..the longer Im
standing/laying/crouched/sitting/hunched over, shooting holes in
him..the longer he has to shoot me..and I dont like eating a bullet very
much at all. Been there, done that..have the pucker marks to prove it..
Far too many of them. I hate gambling with how many rounds I need to
bust the guy with before he is no longer a danger to me and mine.
Getting shot/stabbed/clubbed/bayoneted hurts like a sumbitch.
Really..trust me on this. It ****ing hurts. And it may kill you.
Are you guys aware that a single round from a .22 pistol is on average,
more deadly than a couple rounds from a .380? Its quite true.
That bullet bounces around inside the body cavity punching holes in
****ing near everything. Takes the guys in the ER hours to find em all.
Sometimes they have to go in a second time and look for the rotting
tissue where the **** has leaked, out a couple days later to patch up a
hole they didnt find the first time.
The only problem is..the guy may have walked into the ER an hour after
he took the hits. Not a lot of Stopping Power in a .22.
The .25 is even worse as a matter of fact. I knew a gal who was in deep
depression..her old man was an asshole, drunk womanizer etc etc. During
a party (where he left with a chicky) ..she went upstairs, got her Baby
Browning .25 and shot herself in the side of the head. She dropped like
a rock. No one heard the shot. As far as anyone can figure..it was
5-15 minutes later when she woke back up, went downstairs and danced for
at least an hour before suddenly falling over dead of cerebral
hemmorage. It took the coroner to find the bullet hole in her
skull.Thats why NOBODY with any sense uses .25s anymore. If you NEED to
shoot someone..you dont want them dancing on your body for an hour
before falling over dead.
There is NO such thing as an effective "comfortable" handgun. Period.
End program, full stop. None. The smaller you go, the more comfortable
they can be to carry. And when you finally need it..that small pretty
little comfortable pop gun may get you killed. Shrug..fact of life.
Anything under a .357 is a hope and a dream. Lets hope you get your
dream and not a nightmare.
Shrug..just a heads up
Gunner, getting ready to go down to LA.
"Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with
minimum food or water,in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing
clean on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do---
his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.
The True Believer doesn't care 'how hard it is'; he knows he either wins or he dies.
He doesn't go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the 'Cause.' Now, who wants to quit?"
NCOIC of the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course in a welcome speech to new SF candidates