Hawke wrote:
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
m...
Hawke wrote:
The conservatives are the party of terrible ideas. The liberals are
the party of evil and dangerous ideas.
... snip
You need to explore the roots of the word "liberal". The people who
thus self identify today would have been almost 100% in opposition
to the views of our founding fathers: Limited government via
Federalism,
strong independent States' Rights, the doctrine of Enumerated Rights
...
all of these and more are regularly violated by today's so-called
"liberals". In reality, almost all liberals today, and a good many
conservatives are actually "statists" that wish to undo the limits
of Federalism.
If you actually knew what liberals thought you would see how off the
mark
your ideas are. You are going to have a hard time finding liberals today
who don't believe in limited government, states' rights, or enumerated
rights. The conflict is in what these mean and how far one goes in
believing in them. You simply think they mean far more than liberals do.
But they still believe in them.
Then let's use the word "statist" to describe the people in charge of
the
current administration and congress. There is no doubt that those in
charge are pushing for larger federal power, more government, higher
taxes,
and less personal freedom.
You should also know that the limited government, federalism and weak
central government was already tried by the founding fathers when the
Articles of Confederation were adopted.
Umm, no, the problem with the Articles of Federation was that they were
not true federalism.
In fact, it sounds like your idea
of the best government would be like the Articles. Unfortunately, it was
the founding fathers themselves who learned that a stronger central
government was better than the federalism you prefer. So, they tried it
and rejected it for a strong central government. Hamilton and Jefferson
fought over this
repeatedly. Hamilton won and even Jefferson acted more like a statist
when he was president. In theory what you advocate sounds good but in
reality it doesn't work.
Hawke
The founders recognized that a federal republic should have a central
government with the power to regulate interstate and foreign commerce, and
see to the common defense of the republic. Note the word "regulate" was
*never* meant by the founders to mean controlling or owning businesses
engaged in interstate commerce. However, the federal government was not
intended to be the over-arching controlling authority over citizens' lives
that it has become. The statists are winning right now and that is cause
for grave concern for those who value liberty.
Here's the problem you're having. What the founders thought doesn't really
matter all that much any more. That's the truth. They had no clue whatsoever
Not to statists and other apologists for collectivism. For those of
us that wish the blessings of personal liberty to continue, they do
very much still matter.
that the world would be anything like it is now, you can't blame them for
that though. Things have changed so much in the last 200 years that little
of what they believed in still applies. If they were alive today they would
Not when it comes to the power of the collective over the individual
it hasn't changed. Nothing in the so-called changed world mitigates the
need to vastly limit government power - perhaps even moreso than in the
Framers' time. They didn't have GPS, surveillance electronics, the NSA,
and all the rest at their disposal. Their ideas still tower today, except
of course among the whiney statists that increasingly infest the body
politic. Whiney statists that cannot bear the thought of being self
reliant, responsible, and otherwise free, and prefer the shackles of
being kept public pets.
understand that the modern U.S. has to operate far differently than it did
when they created it. That means having a strong central government that is
basically the country's real government. Basic things are left to the states
to handle but the federal government is what counts. They never thought that
would happen. They thought the country would always be a confederation of
strong and pretty independent states. Well, it didn't work out that way. It
turned into a strong central government with a confederation of weak states.
But that is how it has to work in today's world.
The "modern U.S. [government]" only operates far differently because
its citizens have increasingly abandoned their birthright of personal
liberty, and for no other necessary reason.
You can argue over how far the government should go in what it does, and
many people think it's gone too far. But the basic assumption is that the
federal government is the United States government not the state
governments. Over the past eight years we saw a tremendous increase in
That is your assumption, not mine. Then again, I am not a collectivist.
The Federal government was chartered to ensure liberty, defend the union
against aggression, and make sure the several states did not foulup
interstate commerce (that and run the postal system). It need do nothing
more that this today for the nation to remain quite healthy. Everything
else can be done by the states severally, or possibly in voluntary
coordination with one another. There is no need for a $3T Federal government
except to keep a good many incompetents employed and for the malignant
political ooze to slither its way to the top.
government intrusion and power under Bush, which didn't have to be. Now we
Bush was a statist. He had some virtues but being a strict
Constitutional originalist wasn't one of them.
have a real problem and the only way to fix it is for the government
(central) to do it. Out of necessity, and for a temporary time, the Obama
Utter nonsense. This argument of necessity is trotted out every time
the statists want to expand the power of government. Our Dear Leader
of the moment does so breathlessly on a moment-by-moment basis.
administration is going to have to do things it wouldn't ordinarily do. The
same was true with FDR. Exigent circumstances have made a situation where
They are going to do them for the same reason FDR did - to aggregate
personal power, diminish the liberty of the individual, and tighten
the iron fist of the government on the people.
the central government has to intervene in areas it would rather not be
involved in. Once the crisis has passed Obama's government will shrink and
will be less intrusive than Bush's was. Regardless, because of the evolution
You are living in a fantasy world. There is no significant recorded example
of political vomitus like Obama having achieved power ever stepping away
from it.
of the nation and the modern world the government has to be a lot bigger
than what people thought in 1776. But despite the changes in thinking from
Bigger in absolute size because of the size of the nation, but not bigger
in absolute scope. The military today of necessity has to be larger than
the one in 1776, but that doesn't mean we now need the DEA, EPA, an Education
department, and all the rest of the Federal stupidities currently in place.
then until now what you don't get is that while you may want a minimalist
government most of America does not. They want Soc. Sec., they want
Medicare, they want national health care, they want a clean environment,
Yes, yes, a whopping 53% of the electorate (and declining) decided to
vote for personal irresponsibility, lack of integrity, mooching, whining,
and trying to get others to pay their debts. This too has no good ending
as we shall all witness soon enough. Immoral acts do not get sanitized
merely because they were voted into place. And immoral acts always have
unhappy endings.
they want a large national defense. So the reason our government is so big
And defense is one of the very few things specifically enumerated to the
Federal government as its responsibility.
is because that is what Americans have demanded even though there are those
like you that don't want those things. Like it or not that's the way it is
and that's the way it's going to stay. Like the saying goes, "we're not in
Kansas anymore, Toto".
Oh dear, you're dunking in the collectivist goo seems most complete.
"If the mob wants it, it must be right." I'd point out that every
act of evil in history started out with either "For the good the people"
or "Because the people demand it." Enjoy your collectivist outcomes -
I shall not be here to see them. Those of you who will be are headed
for slavery...
Hawke
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Tim Daneliuk
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