"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Hawke wrote:
Take your pick. You can have your freedom or you can be an American
but you can't have both. Because if you're going to be an American
you have given up some of your freedom to be a part of something
bigger and more important than just your own selfish interests.
Being part of a country and "a people"

You are dead wrong. My formulation is the one the Framers had in
mind. Yours is the artifact of malignant 19th Century philosophy
and evil 20th Century politics

Well, when the framers lived the population was 4 million and 90% of
the population lived within 50 miles of the east coast. Given that,
they hadn't a clue as to what it would take or be like to keep order
in a country the size of this one in the 21st century. Plenty of
ideas of the time have passed. Jefferson thought we should all be
gentlemen farmers. I don't think he had that right. Thinking you are
the only person in the world and are free to do anything you want is
completely passe'.



means that the society and the "people" are more important than the
individuals. Otherwise why would anyone sacrifice anything for
something like "country" when you are all that matters? If you
choose to be a part of

You clearly haven't read or understood a shred of U.S. Revolutionary
history and its intellectual foundations. Guys like Locke and
Jefferson (and Adams, and Madison, and Paine, and Hancock, and
Witherspoon, and ...) would hold your view in utter contempt.

They probably would but they don't have the knowledge that I have
that has come from the hundreds of years since their passing. Times
have changed and if you look carefully you will find that most of
their ideas are either no longer working or are so changed that they
wouldn't recognize them if they saw them in action today. And by the
way, I hold some of their ideas in comtempt too. Lucky for me I have
the benefit of a couple centuries of knowledge they didn't. Otherwise
they would probably have different views too. I can't blame them for
thinking the way they did then because they were ignorant of many
things. But you don't have that excuse.



society and part of a nation you make the choice to give up some of
your personal freedom it's the social contract. If you don't like
the terms then get out and find some place else where you live on
your own and are not a part of a larger entity. But if you are a
conservative you want to have everything you want for yourself
without giving anything up to the whole. In other words the honor
system won't work with people like you.

I am not a conservative. But you are clearly a liberal - your
argument
is intellectually dishonest, unconnected to actual history, and ends
with "love my view or hit the road".


Well, I do believe in liberal democracy, which seems alien to you even
though you live in one. You seem to be stuck in the wrong century.
All I am saying is that the world is a different place and the rules
have changed. You don't get to do everything you want when you live
in a place with thousands of others in a square mile, which is how
most Americans live. Like it or not you are part of the machine, the
society. There are rules to keeping the thing running and keeping
order. You just are a romantic and have not accepted the realities of
today's world. Can't say I blame you for that but this is the time
and place you exist in so I'd say learn to like it. You'll be a lot
happier.

You should learn to quit telling other people how they should live their
lives, then you would be a lot happier.

Can't get anybody you know to listen to this bull**** in person so you
bombard us with it instead.

plonk you and the IP you road in on.


Right wingers are so quick to plonk people. It's no wonder. They truly hate
hearing facts that prove they don't know what they are talking about. The
plonk you just heard was the sound of another right winger's mind slamming
shut to keep the truth from getting in.

Hawke