"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:31:32 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrawled the following:

One way to look at this is that the world is gravitating toward the
equilibrium that has already been established in Europe and Japan, as a
result of their high fuel prices. Their government-controlled market is
the
"normal" that the US is now facing. I'm not absolving anyone here, just
pointing out a fact. The Japanese and European car builders are positioned
to come out on top when things get tough. Our domestic builders are
positioned exactly the opposite way.

Despite 30+ years to have learned the lesson. Effem!


Long before that. Europe established their high fuel taxes back in the
1930s, when government intrusion in markets was more widely accepted. Now
they have a culture and a car industry based upon those prices and
standards. Smaller, more fuel-efficient cars are their "normal." For us,
the
several waves of small-car popularity we've experienced, around 1960,
1975,
and now, are an anomaly in the market. We drop them as soon as things turn
up. In Europe and Japan, they don't.

Who is your "we" here, Ed? I generally find that once people drive an
economy car, they stick with them from then on.

"We" being Americans in general. "We" like big cars and go back to them when
the crisis is over. "I" am one of them in most ways, except that I have
always preferred small cars, and have never owned a big one, except for a
couple of cargo vans.



OK. That's why we have you here, Ed, to set the record straight. Umm,
quickly scanning the wiki, it created the NLRB, which I see as a union
puppet organization. Was it always so?

Not always a "puppet." It was the mechanism that put the Wagner Act into
force. It was helped along by a reversal in Supreme Court decisions in
the
mid-'30s. Until that time the Court always sided with the owners, and
basically said that union organizing was unconstitutional.

It was a bizarre time in Constitutional history, well worth studying.

Who has the time, if they were so inclined? I sure don't.

It's important American history.

But a bit boring, eh?

Not if you get excited about constitutional law. I don't know why I do; I
find the practice of law in general to be boring.



I'd like to help you identify some stupidity or ill motivation on the
part
of management (who I think are intellectually lazy, flabby, and dull,
but
not stupid), but that isn't the complete story, either.

It ends the same either way, doesn't it?

It does. With hindsight, it's easy to say they're dummies who screwed up.
I
think the truth is more like they're typical short-sighted rust-belt
managers with their eyes on the next quarter or maybe the next year, at
best. And the car industry has never been one that leads or anticipates
problems. It just bounces from one crisis to the next, making money as
fast
as they can in between the downturns. They've been more effective at
lobbying and coercing Congress than they have at building a solid industry
that can weather ups and downs.



Have you ever looked at the Consumer Reports graphs for GM cars? For
every year, they have had the worst record of any car maker.

Disclaimer: I haven't had access to those stats for a couple of
decades, but friends have told me that they haven't changed. GM is
still a POS and Ford is sliding toward them with their godawful
transmission problems, etc.

I think they've gotten a lot better, but it's too late. They're like
John
McCain in the final weeks -- spinning around looking for a solution.

I don't want to see the Nov 4th results. I really don't. I think I'm
going to have to yet again face an (five in a freakin' row?)
antithetical presidential term and I reallyreallyreally don't want to.
They sure know how to kill patriotism in D.C., don't they? sigh

Because they aren't your favorite candidates? g Hey, when you vote
Libertarian, you can't expect anything except endless heartbreak.

I'm still a Libertarian at heart but won't be voting for any
Libertarian presidents soon. You convinced me of the heartbreak.

They're pretty dull, too. I saw Bob Barr give an interview last week and all
I could think of was Buckley's line about libertarians being "ingeniously
simple-minded." g



I'm for minimum three-digit IQ in voters. No more of this single digit
crap, OK?

What we need is to re-instill a sense of responsibility for the country as
a
whole.

Agreed! Do you have any ideas as to how to pull that off?

Nope. If I did, I'd run for some office.


Detroit didn't change along with our eco-awareness when the first fuel
crisis hit 30+ years ago. Datsun and Toyota did and they're in good
shape here.

Datsun (Nissan) and Toyota were already there. They didn't have to change
at
all.

Verily.


Yeah, there are still plenty of big-car drivers around,
and they're really nice for cross-country trips like I did to New
Mexico 7 years ago. But the little Hyundai Elantra I rented 2 years
ago was nearly as comfy as the Merc Marquis on the freeway, and it got
me 30mpg at 75-95mph on the Bay Area trip. Big cars are obsolete for
most of the old reasons.

That hasn't stopped them from selling them, though, has it? That's a pact
made in hell, between the car makers and others who benefit from selling
big
cars, and from a foolish public that defined their goals to include owning
bigger cars. That's them, plus us.

In a word: Soccermoms. 90mph to school and shopping with one Mom and
one kid in that huge old Suburban/Yukon/Expedition with the 500
engine. sigh


Don't forget consumers. We vote, and Congress responds.

So don't vote. It only _encourages_ them.


Oh, come on, Ed. Your focus is too tight. The gov't can't even run a
brothel right. I'm talking about all the unnecessary crap they
overspend on every day.

Like the war in Iraq? Or are you referring to Medicare? Have you looked
closely enough at the budget to know where the real savings could be? If
so,
where do you want to cut, specifically?

The last time we discussed this, I wanted out of the war and to snip a
couple dozen alphabet agencies off the list. You made fun of me for
even discussing the agencies and their piddly hundreds of millions.
That's enough discussion with you on budget, TYVM. g

g Follow the money. It ain't the EPA or the Education Department.



They could have offered reduced import taxes on small cars to the
Japanese (spurring U.S. competition) or rebates to the Big-3 for
producing small cars (monetary incentives.)

The import tax thing was tried with light trucks, and we had those
"voluntary" restraints that kept their market share down. As soon as gas
became cheap again, the US builders switched back to bigger cars. Then
came
the SUV, the vehicle from hell that made bundles of money for US
carmakers.
They didn't even have to engineer anything new. At first, they just used
pickup-truck frames that had been obsolete for passenger vehicles since
1960.

The "rebates" you're talking about, which supposedly would increase US
production of small cars, are the fuel-economy restrictions that Jenkins
blames for our troubles now. You seem to draw a conclusion opposite to
his.
g

My whining about congress didn't automatically align me with Jenkins.
You just inferred that when I didn't swat his discourse. shrug


It must be burdensome. That's business for you.

I've been busy since July, and have done 8 raised bed garden frame in
the past six weeks or so. Fall is making up for a really bad first
half year, thank Buddha.

Well, that's good news. Maybe your business is counter-cyclical.

I think the fact that the market didn't fold had something to do with
it. My customers are usually old farts (like you and they respond
to the assinine "The Sky is Falling!" crap from the media.

The handyman biz is usually hottest from March or April to September
or early October, when the rains hit. My web design biz usually rides
the opposite months. They're fairly complementary.

But I'm still living hand to mouth. Happiest memories include the
occasional comma in my bank balance. sigh

Be glad you have work. Some people are really sucking wind. Even Merck is
dropping 7,000 jobs, and I thought that Big Pharma was pretty immune to all
of this.

--
Ed Huntress