Robatoy wrote:
On Sep 24, 10:47 am, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
As best as I can determine, I do not fear collectivists. I hold them
in utter contempt for their irrationality and evil practices.
I think what's at issue here, is that you hurl about the term
'collectivist' in a random and sanctimonious way. Enhanced by a
sprinkling of smug, arrogant self-righteousness, your arguments do
appear, to some, to hold some substance, but I see right through the
hollowness.
Let's see if I can provide the substance you feel is missing:
A "collectivist" is ordinarily understood to be someone who favors the
interests of the group (the "collective") over those of the
individual. There are degrees of this viewpoint. Some collectivists
believe the interests of the group entirely trump those of the
individual - historically, this has been expressed by the Communists,
the German 3rd Reich, the Italian Fascists, the Red Chinese, Japan
under Tojo, most of Africa, most of the 3rd world, and so forth. In
every case cited, collectivism worked out very nicely for everyone.
Witness, for example, the fine quality of life the Africans have
enjoyed as they've protected their various tribal collectives.
Another view some at least try to hold is that the interest of the
group and the individual must be "balanced". This is the view of most
European neo-Leninists (Social Democrats) and so-called 'liberals' in
the Anglosphere. This inevitably devolves into more and more power for
the collective because no person or government can every agree what
"balance" means. By default, power then flows to the few who govern
the collective. That's how modern Marxists like Barak Obama ascend to
power. It's also how phony conservatives like John McCain get a shot
at power - they promise to protect the individual, and promptly start
making laws for "the good of the nation". This kind of collectivism
has also worked out very well. It has given the Western powers a
crushing burden of debt because of social services spending, and the
consequent corruption of government that follows the money. This has
also led abuses of individual liberty. Examples include hate-speech
laws in the US and Speech Tribunals in Canada, wherein unpopular
speech is actually prosecuted as criminal. There are many other
examples of the evils that follow collectivism - not the least of
which is the current economic mess in the West.
Then there are those of us who are anti-collectivist to our roots. We
believe that the only role of government is to keep us free. This
restricts government to interdicting in matters of force, fraud, or
threat. This limitation is necessary because government without such
limitation will naturally use its power to oppress people as the
examples above demonstrate. We who oppose collectivism also tend to
have a much higher degree of confidence in the intellect, good will,
and ethics of our fellow citizens: We believe that good people will
step up to help those in real need without having to stick a gun to
the head of those good people and make them do it. We are generally
called "libertarians" (which is different than "Libertarian", a
political party).
Collectivists operate by force and mob rule masking their intentions
and methods in the guise of doing good things. Libertarians operate by
cooperation and good will and manage to do good things without harming
those around them.
Still think this is "random and sanctimonious"? If you do, here's a
way to shut me up: Show me a single example of collectivist rule that
does not over time cause harm to individual liberty and lead to a net
reduction in freedom. Hint: You won't find one.
I suppose we should all consider ourselves 'chosen' that you'll even
speak to us.
You chose to engage every bit as much as I did. This is called
a "conversation".
But I admit, you talk **** rather well.
Good conversations are built on good manners. Using vulgar language
undermines the former because it demonstrates a lack of the latter.
Grow up.
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Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/