On Jul 7, 4:21 am, "Mike S" nospam wrote:
I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a private
school, and the only available time was during classes. As I went about my
business during a 4th grade science class the teacher was asking the
students what they had planned for their science fair projects. One young
girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."

Indeed, but the problem was not the kit, it was either the teacher's
assumption the girl had learned nothing while making it, or that the
girl actually hadn't learned anything while making it, or a little of
both.



At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some valuable
lessons:

Or just jumped the gun assuming something without really knowing and
not having the time to spend on one student when the classroom
curriculum needed to continue in order to give other students some
ideas.


The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics,

False. Modern electronics are, even when using largely integrated
ICs, still bound by input, output, power, properties of the discrete
components built into that IC. Think of it like this: If you want to
solder together a bunch of transistors, a clockgen, resistors, etc,
then pour a blob of epoxy on it, you have an IC that's just quite a
bit larger than one mass produced.


and
there's no need to know these things anyway

.... Unless you have to deal with the underlying aspects of the
technology which is the same as in any other science or trade.

because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.

Oh? Have you not noticed any variable capacitors or other adjustable
parts in one? Did you consider that for someone to have designed this
modern radio, they had to know a bit more than your oversimplified
notion? So it goes with any profession, you can say as a consumer "I
don't need to know" but it is only because some professional does need
to know and does know these basics. If you are thinking it was
different back then, no it wasn't. People weren't building heathkits
because they couldn't find a mass produced radio.

Theory is where it all starts. A child can put a round peg in a round
hole but that's about the depth of the complexity possible until they
develop analytical skills and formulate at least precursors of what we
know as theories.



Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of a
working model of someth am interested in all ing.

I think you are misunderstanding what it's all about. The average
person never did buy a handful of transistors/etc and build a radio.
There was a time when some products were expensive enough that to
build your own meant you could save money, or it was just a hobby, but
the same is true today for example LED flashlights or audio
amplifiers.

Today design work is more about theory than ever. You're modularizing
a design based on functions you mentally conceive, and you just have
fewer steps to build each module. That is, if you are someone doing
it at all, but it all starts somewhere. Did the child have a hope of
building a modern radio instead? Science is about learning, right?
Is the child expected to go down into a volcano or travel to Mars on a
field trip? These too are science topics taught, it doesn't have to
directly relate to a achieved result like owning a modern radio vs the
concepts learned from a basic kit.


I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.
Mike

You are trying to take a shortcut between knowing nothing and having a
nirvana where we have everything. A child is the next generation of
worker who has to know fundamentals in their field, they cannot just
walk into a room with boxes full of ICs and present you with a
finished radio, and if you think only in terms of what they can buy,
to have a good enough job to earn money for such things they have to
have built a skill set in some other discipline which also starts out
with the fundamentals.

I'm sure I've drifted away from your fundamental point, but on the
other hand not everything one's heart desires can actually be bought
at the local electronics store or Walmart, the more discriminating or
picky a person is, the more apt they are to insist on making fewer
compromises and having something that most closely matches their own
subjective needs rather than a product trying to suit as many people
as possible thus making it most marketable. For these picky people,
if they have the skill they are more likely to build or modify
something to suit their need.

As for building from a kit, quite a few people still build their own
computer even though Dell et al. will gladly sell you one. Quite a
few people modify their cars or houses, even if they leave the grunt
work of the initial build to someone else while they focus on earning
money through the job skills they are specialized in. In short it's
just an evolution of our society that everyone isn't so much a jack of
all trades anymore, that we have the most experience people do the
most complex things to achieve a better result whenever it's
reasonably possible, and those experienced people have to start out
with the fundamentals and theories. Maybe the girl you wrote about
will have no interest in electronics, but maybe she will. Only
through exposure will this be known.