Tom McDonald wrote:

Seppo Renfors wrote:

Eric Stevens wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 14:33:03 GMT, Seppo Renfors
wrote:



Eric Stevens wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 01:21:22 GMT, Seppo Renfors
wrote:



Eric Stevens wrote:

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:49:44 GMT, Seppo Renfors
wrote:


They are a result of the small air bubbles trapped throughout the metal
caused by melting it in less than controlled conditions.

I can understand that during a melting process where molecules are at
their most active, some reaction to air and a certain amount of mixing
can occur. What I find difficult is that an annealing process causes
bubbles -UNLESS it is overheated to a melting point locally. How else
does something get INTO the metal to cause bubbles when it is pure to
begin with?

At high temperatures oxygen is soluble in copper.

So you say the copper has to be melted at that point, as you claim
"soluble" - in a SOLUTION! As I thought...

Oxygen is soluble in copper at temperatures below its melting point.

"Soluble" is a word that refers to something dissolving into a liquid
mixture of (whatever). You cannot have something "dissolve" (also
related to "solution") into a solid so it remains solid! Impossible!

That's because your definition is wrong.


It isn't mine - it is merely the world authority on the English
language you are saying is "wrong".


SOLUBLE - adjective 1 (of a substance) able to be dissolved,
especially in water - OED.
DISSOLVE - verb 1 [no obj.] (of a solid) become incorporated into a
liquid so as to form a solution - OED.
SOLUTION - noun 2 a liquid mixture in which the minor component (the
solute) is uniformly distributed within the major component (the
solvent). [mass noun] the process or state of being dissolved in a
solvent. - OED.

QED
[..]

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1407
"Hydrogen embrittlement is caused by the presence of hydrogen atoms
within the crystal lattice structure of a metal or alloy. In the
galvanising process, hydrogen may be absorbed in the steel during
the pickling process through contact with the hydrogen ions present
in the hydrochloric acid."


See, no mention at all of "soluble, solution or dissolve" even though
a solution IS involved. This is because the are not relevant! Mind you
I really would like to see "pickled steel" I wonder is it anything
like pickled onions.... or gurkins..... still it has nothing to do
with the actual subject - copper and annealing which is NOT
"galavanising steel" involving "hydrochloric acid"!


The definition you quoted is correct for the world of cups of tea etc
but has to be expanded to take into account the wider range of
phenomena experienced in the real world.


The definitions *I* quoted are the accurate for the English language
and they really ARE the "real world" you know. There does exits
perfectly good words for other processed eg - as above "absorbed" -
you do NOT need to abuse and misuse the language.


Seppo,

Read and absorb:

I already ignored that nonsense before.

CONTEXT - you missed the CONTEXT that governed the terminology and
therefor its meaning.

Eric's reply was:

"At high temperatures oxygen is soluble in copper" to the question
"How does the gases get in that causes the bubbles?" in relation to
annealing.

Therefor it is NOT possible Eric was referring to the chemistry of a
solid mixture containing a minor component uniformly distributed
within the crystal lattice of the major component because:

(A) it doesn't "dissolve" into the copper because of annealing the
reasons being
(i) It requires the movement of the crystal structure to create
spaces to "dissolve" into

(B) IF spaces exist there already is something in these spaces as a
vacuum cannot exist.
(i) It means the material is porous enough to use as a filter.
(ii) The copper is not pure.
(iii) If the substance in (i) is oxygen, then it would revert to a
copper oxide in no time and couldn't exist as pure.

(C) Your term fails completely as in the annealing process it is NOT
possible to get anything "uniformly distributed within the crystal
lattice" of a piece of copper, as is required by the term you attempt
to use.

(D) The (whatever) that is uniformly distributed within the crystal
lattice has to be there from the moment of the crystal formation.
(i) Then it cannot be the answer given by Eric.
(ii) There is no proof there IS any space to contain anything in
pure copper (remember it includes MODERN melted pure copper) in the
aforesaid form.


All this is something that really needs no thinking about - it is self
evident and obvious from the moment of seeing the term. Your attempt
was another of those "Good morning - Axe handle" type cases.


[..]

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
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The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
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