On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 01:35:10 -0700, Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:


That point is one that is difficult to explain to fans of rusty machines.
I see many defend buying old rusted hulks, especially when they can be
cleaned up and made operational without too much trouble. The "rebuild"
usually includes a wonderful paint job. Unfortunately, paint does nothing
to make a machine tool work well, and the portions that are critical often
get the rust removed and nothing more. That is where experience comes into
play. Unless one knows what can be reasonably expected from a machine
tool, it is most difficult to say with certainty that the tool is working
properly. Many just assume that it is difficult to hold a thou, that it
has nothing to do with any given machine. For those with experience,
though, it takes little to no time to point a finger at the cause for given
difficulties. It's a good step forward when you can finally ascertain
that it is the machine, not you, that has a problem. While it's true
that a good machinist can do reasonably good work on most any machine, it
isn't cost effective, especially when the risk of scrap increases.

Absolutely correct in all respects. While I've developed the skills (on a
hobby basis for the most part) to be able to resurrect an old machine with
lots wear, it's not something that I'd want to invest the time in again.
When I get the shop space to re-acquire metal working tools I'll get new
unless I can find an awesome deal on a GOOD used machine. And if I do find
a used one I'm going to have to have "hands on time under power" before
I'll plunk down the coin. At least I've had enough experience to know if
the machine is in decent shape and won't require a large investment in
time to restore it to good condition.

Talk about dedication! Congratulations of the accomplishment. You
paid a small price to have the use of nice machines. I'd have done the
same thing had I been in a like situation.

Thanks... In addition to the manual skills one has to learn to do that I
suspect that the most valuable one is learning to work carefully and be
patient. Too many times folks get in too much of a hurry and quality
suffers.

There were times when I chased threads for an entire week, then on to
other parts. I guess what prompted me to get serious about quality
was the fact that everything we produced received 100% inspection
(defense work), even between operations, so good money wasn't thrown
after bad. I was fortunate to have had a supervisor that took a
personal interest in me and my progress. He patiently talked to me and
lead me along, teaching me the right and wrong ways to do things, and
encouraging me to shoot for quality. I was told that if I learned to do
things in an acceptable manner, that speed would come automatically. It
was true.

It's really these old guys that have been doing this sort of work since
tools were steam powered that are some of the best teachers. Just about
anything you can think of they've done. And they've probably found all the
ways not to do it as well as what works.

Yeah, that was my point, too. In a way, I guess it's no loss, but I
can't help but wonder if the day won't come that we have regrets.

I have little doubt that will happen. Consider industries like ship
building. With the fewer yards every year we're loosing the years & years
of experience that's necessary to build ships well. At some point all the
"old guys" may be gone and with them all that knowledge. And that's not
something you can "learn from a book".

I get a kick out of watching the show about Craig Boddington's (SP?) shop
and the guy that's "older than dirt" that can work magic with metal.
There's fewer & fewer of those guys around every year what with production
moving off-shore and the increasing reliance on CNC. I'd love to have the
opportunity to just be able to stand around and watch that guy work...

My
training was job specific, so I didn't have to jump through the hoops
the way apprentices did in the "old days". I managed to run a shop,
subcontracting, for the most part, from the industry from which I came.
It treated me well, and I closed the doors voluntarily. I could have
kept busy endlessly. Still, my skills alone would not have been enough
to compete. Without CNC training, not many can do so today. I guess
that, in part, helps explain why the classes have been dropped. What
disturbs me is that we wouldn't be able to respond as easily in a
national emergency as we once could, not when we depend on foreign
nations for the majority of our manufacturing, and few are learning the
skills, be they CNC or manual.

Yep...

That is the part about CNC operators that troubles me. I realize that
they turn out the work, but without the computer, often they can't. They
may be well trained to do what they do, but in many cases they don't
really understand the workings. For example, can they sharpen tools? Of
necessity, CNC operations dictate almost exclusive use of inserts. I
don't have a problem with the fact, but those that train on and operate
such machines are very likely to never have a grip on cutting tool
geometry, and couldn't hand grind a tool if their life depended on it.
If a CNC operator thinks it's a simple step to go from the computer to a
manual machine, they're in for one hell of a shock. Again, anyone can
make chips, but when it comes to stepping off dimensions for drilling,
or cutting a window, it can be a dreadful experience when done for the
first time. My hat's off to guys like you that have taken the bull by
the horns and learned the things that constitute one being worthy of
having the title "machinist", even though to be one doesn't command much
respect.

Yeah, that, in a sideways sort of way, was what I was talking about. Those
guy's might be a gee whiz at programming and setting up a CNC machine, but
if you really only needed one part it would cost a fortune compared to a
manual process by a good machinist. And, by and large, I suspect that the
CNC guys couldn't do it if the job had any complexity (needing jigs,
careful planning, etc).

If you have the time learning the old skills can be immensely rewarding.
And this is true of any "hand arts" skill set and isn't confined to
metalworking. And, suprise, suprise, the fastest and best way to learn
those is to hook up with one of the "old geezers" that did it that way for
years. While it is unlikely that one will ever make any money with those
skills the self satisfaction one gets is well worth the investment in time.

--
The instructions said to use Windows 98 or better, so I installed RedHat.