In article ,
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
[ ... ]
Agreed. I guess that you could lock down the collet drawbar and
use one of those three-finned wrenches to spin the collets into it from
the spindle nose end, but it is one extra tool to find someplace to
keep, and the fine adjustment would be a bear since any workpiece would
get in the way of the wrench.
Another idea would be to disturb anyone near you and have them hold the
collet while you turn the drawbar.
Since it is a hobby shop at this point, I would have to go
upstairs, talk my wife into leaving her anti-spam research (or whatever
else she is doing on the computer) and come downstairs to hold it. And
she really does not *like* to come into the shop that much. :-)
On the other hand, maybe you could just
use the damned key as it's intended to be used.
Amen!
I'm completely baffled
how some people can go so far out of their way to make things more
difficult, and then justify it as if they've made some great discovery.
:-)
:-)
The last job I held before I started my shop back in '67, I ran a small
Clausing, likely a similar machine to yours. It was a 6" machine on
which
6" Are you using the UK spec -- center height above bed, instead
of the US maximum diameter swung above bed? Mine is 6" by the UK
standards, or 12" by the US ones.
No, US specs, but I may be wrong on the size of the lathe, it may have been
an 8" machine, although I remember it as a 6". It was a small machine,
bench mounted, so low that you sat to run it.
O.K. A very different machine, then. It may well have been 6",
though I haven't seen one that small.
Considering we worked five
12's and one 6 hour day each week, sitting wasn't all that bad of an idea.
It had been used as a polishing and junk machine until I came along. It had
been poorly cared for, almost never wiped or oiled. I was quite surprised
to have it turn out as well as it did. Once it got wiped and oiled
routinely it had a pretty nice feel. A far cry from the first time I ran
it, when it was stiff as could be.
I'll bet. Did it have the flame-hardened ways? Mine does, and
I suspect that is one reason that it shows so little wear. (The bed
turret is a second contributing factor, of course.)
I had a thing for doing small work, so when they found out I was willing to
do it, they started heaping it on me. I was the one to decide to use the
little Clausing, I could have used a larger machine, but if you've done much
small work, you know how dreadful that is. Speed is essential, and
nothing in the place had the same speed capability.
For certain small work, I use either the old Unimat SL-1000, or
the Taig -- usually with the WW (watchmaker's) spindles and collet sets.
Those both give me plenty of speed, and the ability to hold really small
parts accurately. The "collets" for the standard Taig spindle are far
from what I would prefer, but with the watchmaker's spindle, things
are quite nice.
Can't even remember how
fast the spindle ran, but it had the collet setup
What size collets? Perhaps 3C? (good up to 1/2" or perhaps 5/8"
I guess.) Mine handles the 5C comfortably, and has the lever style
closer.
and also a Buck 6 jaw
chuck,
Very nice!
so it was quite nice to use for the small work I did with it.
Interestingly, I had left Sperry (Univac by then) only 18 months earlier,
and it was sub-contract work from them that I was running where I was
employed. As a result, I was very familiar with the type of quality that
they expected. All the work was defense oriented, something I had trained
to do.
:-)
O.K. That is one notch above mine -- even it it is the same
size. Mine has five step pulleys in the pedestal, and back gears to
give a total of ten speeds. (At least until I swap in a three-phase
motor and connect up a VFD for the purpose.)
Still a nice machine, for sure, but variable drive is really the way to go.
I miss it on my Graziano, although I've run it for so many years now that I
don't remember just how nice it is to be able to changes speed while
cutting. The Graziano does that, but by steps, like a gear change. I
like the infinite controls, especially when facing and trying to keep up a
good surface finish. I've not run anything equipped with VFD, but
understand that's what you gain.
It is, indeed. It should even be possible to set up a rack gear
turning a potentiometer to automatically change the spindle speed as you
are facing, for lots of repeat cuts.
Super nice way to go, especially if you
don't sacrifice torque at low speed. The EE was famous for not losing
power at low speeds.
The EE had a very interesting way of doing that, with a DC motor
and separate control of field and armature to maximize both speed at the
high end and torque at the low end. Several different techniques were
used over the years, and now they are selling rebuilds with oversized
induction motors and VFDs to maintain the low-end torque.
The variable speed pulley assembly is noisy compared to the
standard step pulley -- and a Monarch 10EE is even more quiet.
To be honest, I was quite spoiled from
having had an EE at my disposal for years prior to leaving Sperry.
Those can certainly spoil one. :-)
Unless you've run one, I'm not sure you can really understand just how nice
they are.
I have. One of the ones with a motor-generator in the right
pedestal to power the DC motor. I always wondered why I had to turn it
on and hear this big motor spinning up while nothing visible moved. :-)
This one was where I worked, and the only thing wrong with it was that
the spindle tach was dead, so I had to set speeds by feel. :-) If it
were mine, I would have pulled that tach and tried to repair it, but it
belonged to the government, and was on someone else's property list.
I've always coveted one, but couldn't come to terms with the
cost. Not that they weren't worth the money, for I feel they were. It was
just one hell of a lot of money for a guy that was starting out, secure in
his ability, but insecure as to his ability to secure work enough to pay the
bills. Looking back, I would have done just fine. Should have bought
the EE, but I sure do like the Graziano. In a way, it's a better choice
for a guy with only one lathe.
I'm quite happy with my Clausing most of the time. There are
times when I would like to have the continuously-variable speed (which I
will get when I put the three-phase motor and the VFD into it), and
there are times when I would like a bit more swing, but most of the time
it is quite satisfactory. And I have the little Compact-5/CNC for
things like metric threads, and other repetitive small work, and the
Taig and the Unimat SL-1000 for the very small work. Each has its
benefits.
It was equipped with a KDK tool post, which
has never been a favorite of mine.
Is that the one with the ribbed post and matching ribs on the
tool holders, which can lock up at 15 degree intervals? I've seen them,
but never used one.
No, and I'm not familiar with the one you describe. The KDK was similar to
the typical insert type tool post, only it had a small handle that was
thrown (vertically) to lock or unlock the tool blocks. As I recall it had a
dovetail type lock, and the handle operated the gib, so to speak. At any
rate, when the handle was thrown, the dovetails tightened up.
Did it have two dovetails -- one for turning and one for
facing/boring? The location of the lever suggests that it has only the
one dovetail.
The Compact-5 has yet another style of quick-change. There are
two male 'V's on the turning and the facing/boring sides of the post,
and corresponding female 'V's on the tool holders. Between the 'V's on
the post there is a T-head on a cam which engages a T-slot in the tool
holder. When you operate the cam, the tool holder is pulled firmly
against the toolpost, so you get a good rigid setup. Of course, each
holder has its own height adjustment, so you can change tools without
having to worry about center height.
Sorry to be
so vague, but I left that job back in '67. Small wonder I'm a bit
puzzled.
:-)
As I recall, the (short) handle was (is) located on the right hand side of
the holder, knob end towards the operator, and had a pivot that was parallel
to the ways.
This is what makes me think that it used a single dovetail.
I've seen some on eBay (which may be what you are describing) which have
some tool holders in an 'L' shape to wrap around the post to provide a
facing/boring holder.
I've never actually *used* these (or even seen them other than
in the eBay auctions) so the name does not stick.
It did not index, but like the other quick change holders, it
was adjustable vertically. For a small lathe it wasn't all that bad, but
the shop had a 42" DSG lathe with a KDK holder. The tool blocks weighed in
at roughly ten pounds each, so changing them wasn't a fun job, especially
when one worked 12 hour shifts, which was the norm.
That sounds as though a counterbalanced crane for changing
toolholders would have been helpful.
The one advantage was
that when using the lathe to capacity, the cuts were relatively long lived,
so you didn't change often.
There is that. For a given number of horsepower fed to the
spindle, there are only so many cubic inches of steel which can be
removed per hour. :-)
I get the idea that the KDK line isn't available any longer. You, of all
people, seem to be very familiar with machine tool accessories, so I'm
somewhat surprised that you aren't familiar with them.
I haven't had hands-on experience with all of them. I think
that I have seen them in eBay auctions (if the L-shaped tool holder for
facing and boring is right), but I've never used them.
I prefer a square toolpost (OK
Rubber
Welders, specifically), although they tend to be limiting for complex
setups.
And the name does not inspire confidence in their rigidity,
though I suspect that they in reality are very rigid. :-)
I really like the Aloris style quick change for everything that
[ ... ]
But -- I got a chance to use a good quick-change fairly early
on, after using mostly a lantern style before, so I got hooked. :-) I
only had a couple of weeks of experience with the four-way before the
quick-change appeared.
I guess our first experiences are quite influential. It was on the EE that
I became familiar with the OK Rubber Welders head, and then once again I ran
a machine briefly that was equipped with one when I left Sperry. I got
used to having a small box of shims near, and still do, so it's really easy
to set up a tool when you're familiar with the system.
One regular on the newsgroup keeps each tool with the associated
shims in a pill bottle. That makes for fairly quick setup.
For the most
part, when I was actively machining I could almost guess the right shim
combination to find center. Usually one try, then an adjustment by adding
or removing a thin shim and it was done. That can be a real PITA if you
don't have a supply of shims on hand, though.
Agreed -- and when I was using the machine at work with the
4-way toolpost -- the shop was new, and we didn't have shims around, so
I had to cut some out of aluminum and whatever else was near the right
thickness, using the DiAcro metal shear. :-) When the machinist in
charge of the shop ordered and got the Aloris quick-change toolpost, I
fell in love with it. :-)
The OK Rubber Welders square head is unique in that it indexes by detent
every 15 degrees, but has serrations at 3 degree intervals that allow the
head to lock down precisely on location. You can make setups and mark dials
and trust the head to repeat.
O.K. -- with the Aloris style, I normally don't change the
setting of the post (unless I change the compound angle, in which case I
re-square it with the ways and chuck face). For different angles of
cut, I use different tools, pre designed for that angle. I do have one
tool holder with multiple rows of setscrews which would allow mounting a
tool at a strange angle, though what I intend it for is next time I go
into production mode on the microphone adaptors. I should be able to
mount two tools in it -- one to groove the runout groove for the
external threads, and the other to part off the previous workpiece, all
in a single pass.
Without the serrations, it's no different
from any other square indexing block, though. It does not self index, you
must index manually, but that's actually a good feature for me because I
often used tools in random sequence, occasionally using a tool for more than
one function. That way you could index in either direction when the handle
was unlocked. No big deal.
Agreed -- though you are still limited to a maximum of four
tools at a given setup. With the Aloris style post, I can have any
length sequence of tools I need. Let's see:
1) Parting (and grooving)
2) Turning OD to shoulder
3) OD threading
4) beveling edge
5) facing end
6) Boring ID
7) ID threading
I can picture using all of these on a single project -- and
making multiples of a given workpiece. And that is ignoring
project-specific form tools.
But I guess that you could have two bodies for your four-way,
and swap them in mid project, so you could handle up to eight tools at
once. I would probably put all the boring/facing ones on one turret,
and the OD turning/threading and parting ones on another one.
In a nut shell, I like the advantage of having unlimited tool holders, which
makes a machine much more flexible. I guess the one thing I don't like is
having to handle them. You do get used to it, though, and it would be dead
easy to go from a lantern type toolpost to *any* device that allowed you to
actually make a setup. In all honesty, there's no way in hell you'd catch
me running with a lantern toolpost. I like the flexibility, but they suck
when it comes to any kind of repetition, as you well know.
Indeed so. They also have the *dis*advantage of flexibility too.
They are not nearly as rigid as a good block form toolpost. (Though I
guess using a raw HSS tool ground to shape without a holder might offer
a bit more rigidity.
Enjoy,
DoN.
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