From some of the messages I got while I was gone the past day or so,
some people think I am making the stuff up about Gunner's wife, or
ex-wife, or live-in ex-wife, or whatever she is, and making stuff about
his past life choiced which seem plainly destructive.

Folks ought to read just precisely what Gunner said about his own bad
choices. He not only let a woman walk all over him, in ways of Biblical
insult proportions (bearing another man's child, partying while Gunner
was expected to give up his job to babysit this other man's child,
having money stolen, etc.), but his very "forgiveness" may have become
part of the whole dysfunctional dynamic.

A girlfriend of mine was a "L.M.F.C.C." (Licensed Marriage, Family,
Child Counselor) and she said this is why limits must be set and
upheld, and that showing "compassion" by being a doormat is often not
compassionate at all, usually making things worse.

But Gunner made his choices, including letting this ex-wife dictate the
jobs he could get (by his own words), including taking her back in
after repeated, chronic terrible behavior. I suspect her son's many
medical conditions and ADD are related to the partying during
pregnancy...it fits the syndrome.

Most importantly, Gunner chose to wallow in self-pity, learned
helplessness, remaining in an isolated part of the rural California
even as he knew the jobs were elsewhere. While I am not a psychologist,
it doesn't seem hard to see that his long drives to poorly-paying jobs
were his "cross to bear," part of his martyrdom.

For this, he has a certain amount of my sympathy. But when I read some
of his writing several years ago (actually, the article below was
posted exactly four years ago today), I basically could no longer take
him seriously. No Heinlein character I ever read about, the model
Gunner often seems to model himself after, would have let a woman like
his ex-wife/wife/whatever walk all over him like this, let social
conditions cause him to live in near-poverty in an out of the way part
of the economy, and completely failed to have planned for the normal
economic changes. While being a Heinleinesque or John Wayne-type
character is not achievable by many, maybe by none, Gunner was about as
far from either as one could imagine.

And he did his ex-wife/wife/whatever and her son no favors by being
such a doormat for so many years. Imposing limits, or showing someone
the door, is often the most compassionate form of compassion. Imposing
no limits, setting no rules, being exploited and spat upon, is not
compassionate.

That Gunner ranted for so many years about the evils of this kind of
learned helplessness, failure to adjust, and bad social and economic
choices is, frankly, poignant. A case study for the sociologists and
psychologists, I guess.

But I am not going to say he deserves to feed at the public trough for
his many bad life and career choices. Our taxes are way too high, the
role of government is already way too large, to give out free passes to
the public tit for either Mark Wieber or Lavandawawanda X. Washington
and their broods of dependents.

We cannot pay for the lack of insurance, lack of savings, lack of
planning of the tens of millions just in California who are now saying
"it be their entitlement!"

For some in this newgroup to say that Gunner's hitch in the military as
a job when he was 17 or so is some entitlement for him to be supported
and have his debts paid for is reprehensible. That doesn't even happen
for 20-year vets. Not even for Medal of Honor winners. It doesn't.

And for those who claim that the $400,000 in welfare medical care is
some kind of "repayment of taxes paid," get real. (It sounds to me as
though Gunner's wife barely worked at all, let alone ever paid a lot in
taxes.) Not to mention the upcoming fees Gunner himself will have to
find a way to repay.

I don't envy him, but he made his life choices beginning at least as
far back as 1976, when this tale starts....

Since some folks here don't seem proficient in using the archives of
past articles, here's the story of Gunner's life choices, in his own
words. (A bunch of other articles from him at or about this time, and
in the following months, elaborated on the details. Use Google Groups
in the obvious way to find them.)

(pardon the formatting...)


From: Gunner )
Subject: Why buy a 7.62 x 39 caliber rifle?
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Date: 2000/06/21

Warning.. the below is quite long, disgusting, personally embarrassing,
and a bit deranged. Read at your own risk. Springer Show scouts need
not apply , unless the money is real good.


On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:40:26 GMT, (Bob G) wrote:

But .....

I have expectations. I'll forgive a LOT. I expect perfection from no
one.

But .., don't stand by me, don't cover my back .... you're history.

I GIVE ... big time ... and I expect the same. Don't much care for
excuses.

I'm thinking yah ought to at least think about looking up the lady.
Couldn't hurt.

Last I heard, she has been living with a gent for the last 12 yrs, and
has a daughter by him. I may inquire... but.. if you read below.. you
will know why, I never have or ever will fish in another mans pond.

Not saying yah should just abandon the last. That's up to you, don't
know the feelings or history. But you at LEAST need to make something
clear. She should make up her mind. Love her or not, yah still have
expectations. Be your PARTNER or forget it.

Let her know you're sorry if your not up to her expectations. But ...
you have options. "Love yah, Honey, have a nice life ... bye !"

Hummm lets get your take on this:

1976 Wife gets bored. Takes credit card, and spends 3 days partying,
and meets new fellow. (Carl Wyatt). Affair lasts 5 months.. at which
point she finds she is pregnant. Husband (me) boots her ass out when
finding out she is pregnant with another mans child, and maxing the
credit card out on motel rooms, booze and room service (He was married,
so she paid for the room..or rather, I did)

In her 9th month of pregnancy.. she shows up, belly out to there, and
asks to come home until the baby is born. Two weeks later, I hold her
hand in the delivery room, then sign the birth certificate with my name
as the father.

snip 6 years of financial fiascos and 2 surgerys for the boy...no
insurance)

She gets bored again.. has an affair with Carl for 4 months before I
find out. The she has an affair with Al Quatroche for 3 months where
she explores her sexuality, in group sex, bi sex etc. I sit home, baby
sitting. She then apparently tired of all the fun and games (the boy
friends got tired of her and sent her home) and came home declaring
undying love. I of course, take her in.

snip 7 years of financial fiascos climaxed by 4 surgeries for boy,
loss of kidney to birth defect uncaught by doctors. No insurance)

Year unknown. Wife gets bored once again... Locates and proceeds to
have a 5 month affair with ..yes..you got it.. Carl Wyatt again. Now on
his third marraige. This time she chases him so hard his wife finds
out. He warns her off, changes phone numbers etc. She comes home
claiming to have seen the errors of her ways, and professing undying
love for me.

Snip more years of financial fiascos, including the loss of a job
because she ****ed off a boss of mine. Good job too.

Snip a few more years until 1997, when I start a job, as a traveling
service tech. I told her that I would have to work out of town Monday
morning-Friday evening, but I would do this for a year, and in that
time, she would take care of my books (indipendent contractor) and save
enough money so we could move to the L.A. area, so I could sleep at
home every night. First 4 months.. she did fine.. then got lazy.. and
screwed up the books..

Snip 2 yrs of lies about bills, dirty house, fights with the now 22 yr
old boy who was as lazy as his mother, and as unable to handle any
responsibilities as she was.

Snip. to March, 2000 the signs were there again.. like a horse putting
his ears back, I knew something was gonna happen. Asked her girl friend
if wife was having an affair.. GF said no. House was dirty, uncared
for, bills Appeared to be being taken care of. Wife looked me straight
in the eyes and said everything was fine. Made comments that she was
disapointed that we had not yet moved to L.A., as I had not kept my
promise to move after the first year. I pointed out to her.. that she
still haddnt kept my books in order, had not done her part of the
bargain, had not even entered my reciepts into the computer program I
had purchased.. for 2 yrs.. and we still couldnt afford to move,
because of her malfeasnce. But if she would work on it. we could maybe
move in a few months or a year.

Snip to May 26, Friday, 10am. I get a phone call from wife. She
indicates there was a letter waiting for me at home and she wouldnt be
there when I got back.. After discussion, she agrees to tell me Monday
if she would be coming back. Found that Girl Friend had offered her a
place to stay, and guess what.. she had found Carl Wyatt again.. now
single (still married, but seperated), with house of his own.. She
moves to Bakersfield, 45 miles away.

A mutual friend had talked to her, and the wife had NOT indicated that
there was another man... but indicated she was disatified with the
marraige. The suggestion was made by the friend that wife and husband
should seek counsling. And if she didnt want to do that.. she should go
away, by herself for 3 days and decide what she wanted to do. Wife
agreed, then spent the 3 days in boyfriends bed. Just to make an
unbiased decision ya know.

Monday, May 29, Memorial Day. wife calls me and tells me she loves me,
but doesnt want to spend the rest of her life with someone she is not
in love with. Tells me where to find the bills, and tells me she only
wants her clothes and china. I fax her an agreement and release of
liabilty from this date and a quit claim on the property. She signs and
itts witnessed.

I find part of the bills, and am horrified. Agast.. Big trouble. Son
moves out with his fat, ugly internet girl friend, to a town 80 miles
away. No money, no job.. but one step ahead of the bills. ($745 bill
for long distance calls to North Dakota to other girl friend.. approved
by wife, knowing full well they would be gone when that bill surfaced)
Find my books in disarray, and the computer program with hardcopy of my
receipts etc had not had an entry for a full 30 months.

Tuesday May 30, I have to return to work. She cleans out the rest of her
clothes and raids the bank account. Spending her days at friends house,
nights in Carls bed.

Friday, June 2, I manage during the week, to call all possible
creditors. Whoops! Forclosure on house planned, repo on truck planned,
all insurance had been canceled for months for non payment. Mortgage
was 4 months behind, power had been shut off previous month and
restored, but deposit (big! was required) Answering machine had
messages from creditors that I never knew existed. Credit cards she
had, that I never knew about, maxed out, and unpaid for 4 months.
Credit card of mine, maxed out and not paid on in 6 months.. lots
more.

Sunday, June 4th. I get a phone call from hospital in Fresno, and one
from wifes best friend that wife had had a heart attack and emergency
surgery. I rush the 145 miles to Fresno, to be greeted by wife, in bed,
wired to machines, with "this doesnt change anything, and its not Carls
fault"

later that afternoon, comes a moment of dazzling clarity: wife lying
in bed, uncounsious, looking very fragile, alone, wired to lots of
machines.. and I start to cry, very quietly when I hear: "knock that
**** off, or leave. I dont need it" from my wife as she looks me
straight in the eyes. BING!

During this day....

As I notify all of the next of kin, Im sure to tell each and everyone,
the entire story, starting from 1976. Each is stunned and horrified. Im
gratified that I was given great credit for persiverence, love and
great stupidity. by each family member,,.. including her mother, who
somehow was NOT surprised.

Wed May 7th wife is released from hospital, miraculously well, but with
unknown heart damage (thanks for the prayers ALL!) Returns to her
girlfriends home (well her girlfriends brothers home where they both
were staying)

May 8th-15 Wife starts smoking again, drinking every afternoon with her
boyfriend Carl, who is now a heavy drinker, spousal abuser (his own
words in a 4 hour telephone conversation the day after she is
hosptialized), and starts to play pool on a bars pool league. Pretty
fast recovery.. Spends some days at boyfriends house, all nights
there.

May15. Brother of girlfriend asks her to leave house. She moves in with
boyfriend. Except for everyother weekend, when Carl has coustidy of his
9yr old daughter.. wife has to find other place to stay over alternate
weekends then can move back in during the next two weeks. Deep and
fulfilling relationship. In a prior conversation with boyfriend I asked
why he had not visited her in the hospital. He stated it was the
husbands job. I then asked if that was so.. how come he was ****ing
her.. He coughed spit and hung up the phone. He had admitted knowing
full well she was married in all the previous occasions over the years,
and knowing I knew nothing about them for a long time. I then suggested
he had no honor, and he agreed.

May 16-2000 between the hours of 2am and 6am, persons unknown break
into my truck and remove over $12,000 worth of my personal tools, CNC
lathe parts, tool boxes etc. All out of my pocket btw.
I notify the police for a report, then my boss, whereapon I breakdown
and start to loose it over the phone.

Cried for 45 minutes until the cops showed up. Most of day was a
blurr. and I could feel a breakdown immenent. At this point, from the
first day she left, to the present, I have run the full gamat of
denial, guilt, rage, depression, pain, and had cried myself to sleep
every night, as well as lost 15 pounds because I was forgetting to eat.
I missed an exit ramp by 45 miles once.

Saturday, May 17th. I had been set up with a blind date by a mutual
friend. My first date after becoming unexpectedly single. Lady was a
school teacher, and around my age. We agree to meet at a roadhouse,
where there was a live band, and pool tables ( I dont drink but do play
pool)

Lady was 4 hours late and arrived half drunk. 2 hours later, her
ex-boyfriend and wife show up. A fight breaks out. 2 more hours later,
she flinches and says she has to leave.. her ex husband has just walked
in. I follow them out the door, as they both get into a car, and leave.
Leaving me with my mouth hanging open btw... duh?

So much for my first date. and it may be a while before the next one.

Btw. during this time span, I spend each weekend, cleaning the home. I
remove 13 bags of garbage, thow out the entire living room furniture,
as too vile to keep, start washing windows that had not been washed in
over a year, start fixing broken cabinets, and crying. Each forgotten
item of her clothing, or each item I had purchased for her over the
years, the knicknacks, the doodads, all bring back memories. Like
taking care of personal effects after a death in the family.
The day she left, she had fed the dogs (6 adults, and 4 pups) (I still
wonder where the money went I gave her to have the original momma
spayed went)(and she and the boy had agreed to find them homes...
repeatedly, then another litter would come ) then let them into the
house, and left. I was 11 hours getting home.... not a pretty sight, or
smell... so some carpets got pulled up and removed.. another thing to
take care of when the money is not so tight.

A good question you may be asking.. why didnt I check on her handling
of the funds over the years. Because when I did, I found problems, got
them squared away, and she would tearfully promise to never screw up
again. Over the last couple years, it was easier to ignore the
problems, the dirt, the mess, then come home after a week on the road,
and fight. Some of you married guys know exactly what Im talking about.

Why did I put up with this **** for so long? Because, stupid as it
sounds, and for all my lack of tolorence for other bad things, I loved
my wife with my heart and soul.. Wierd huh. Some of you married guys
know what Im talking about. Love makes one stupid, and blind.

I have not had a vacation in 11 yrs, I have missed about 3 days of work
in all those years. I have not seen a paycheck in the last 6. She
handled the money.. ah huh... I never ever stopped loving her, I never
ever stopped trying to make a home and a living for her and the boy.
For the last 2.5 yrs, I spend my nights during the week in 20' travel
trailer (where Im posting this from), eating the cheapest food possible
(love those 99c stores) so as to make sure my family was fed, the stock
was fed, and a good home was made for them.

I would come home on the weekends, and work all weekend, maintaining,
gardening, taking care of the stuff they never did. then I would go
back to L.A (3 hour drive each way) and do it again.

Why did she leave this time? Because I was "ignoring her, for years"
and didnt pay her enough attention.
Possibly true.. I was simply too damned tired to go dancing every Sat
night, and too ****ed to be warm and cuddly every waking moment I wasnt
fighting with her or the boy, who btw... is exactly like her.
I have a machine shop at home.. my getaway.. "and I spent too much time
playing with the machines" I "spent too much time on the computer"..
which if you check the post times was generally long after she went to
bed.

She says, she ruined the finances.. "subconsiously because she was mad
at me"

Ah huh....

Well, she left because:
1. Her boyfriend became available
2. She was bored
3. She had gotten tired of not being able to afford a new car every
year
4. She is 45 and hitting the point where her looks were going.
5. She has a weakness in her soul, in her personality, where she cannot
admit to any mistakes, or wants to handle any responsibiltys, and they
were crowding her again.

She walked right out of our marraige, into a new life, new lover, new
friends, no responsibilites, no one to critize her actions (or lack
of)..no baggage, to a sugar daddy who makes LOTS more money than me.
The heart attack gave her something to whine about and get pity..
(people are already tired of that... )

So to make a long story short Bob.. do you think I have any options
here? Think I should make the attempt to woo her back from her
boyfriend? What would you do?

ROFLMAO! He is welcome to her.. and I know.. she will queer that
before long, because he doenst have the patience, or the interest, or
the love to put up with her **** for very long.

That, my friends, is why you havent seen much of me until lately.
InterestingTimes, as the curse says.

Now you have seen me, in all my glory, warts wrinkles, zits and all. My
soul and my life bared before my friends and detractors. Any think that
I am hiding something? Mafessence on my part? Id be glad to give you
the email addys of both her friends and mine for outside verification.
There is LOTs I never touched on.. and as this is VERY OT, probably
best not.

Well. then. I guess I win the Grand Prize for Stubborness, and the
Booby Prize for Stupidity. I do find it interesting that all her
girlfriends now consider me a desireable item.. and tested husband
material.. for some reason.

Bob, you asked what was I looking for? And gave me a dressing down for
wanting a trophy woman.... lol... snip 5 minutes of hysterical
laughter

Bob.. at the moment, I do not want anything other than a warm, cuddly
boink buddy, who will ignore the occasional crying jags, and the rock
kicking, and the ocassional hysterical laughter (its been over 5 weeks
without sex.. gaaaaa!) and no I will not pay for it.. not since 73' .

Someday.. I would like, maybe.. down the road, to find a warm, over
sexed, lady, with few inhibitions, multiorgasmic, who is trustworthy,
kind, warmhearted, smart, has common sense, a love for animals, likes
the outdoors, likes being at home, likes to party, but loves to snuggle
in front of a fire place, She can be short, tall (not fat
though...sorry) white, black, brown, yellow, green, relilgiouis or a
pagan.

Pretty, or handsome, or homely,

But she must be loyal, trustworthy and never never ever tell a lie.
She must walk besides me, not ahead, or behind. She must be a stayer,
not a self centered weak quitter.

Do I want too much? Am I being overly picky? Are my standards too high?
Am I asking too much?

Oh.. one last thing.
She must love me,, warts, wrinkles, thinning hair, zippers and all.

Gunner





"You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some
higher moral development. You expect them to obey the law because
they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged."
-Michael Shirley

Google*Home - Advertising*Programs - Business*Solutions - About Google

©2004 Google